Jlall

You are extremely unlikely to ever pass 1C X, even with 5 good clubs and 4 spades. Partner simply has too wide a range of hands for an initial double to make that right (like I don't think many expert players would pass with Axxx xx xx QJ9xx). Additionally, even though double is penalty, partner is allowed to bid now with 4 spades and a stiff club since your hand is limited, and you've shown 4 spades (assuming you don't play the auto raise with 4 spades system that seems popular now). You get to have your cake and eat it too this way. Additionally, with 4333 and a max, it's not that important to be able to bid, since partner can freely balance with 2D if he has 3451, can freely balance with 2S with 4, and can freely reopen X with 3442 and extra values. If he has 3442 and minimum values, passing out 2C is probably fine. Additionally, everyone keeps talking about their opponents "fit" but to my eyes they have not shown a fit yet, RHO never has 5 clubs here, and LHO has shown 3+ clubs. They could easily be in a 7 card fit. Additonally, RHO has advertised that he has a yarborough, and LHO has advertised a minimum, and 2C X is not game, so there is a high reward and low risk for making a penalty double with 4 good clubs here on something like Axxx xx xx KJTx. And again, I think it is easily possible to have 5 clubs on this auction. The nature of the opponents bidding that makes it very easy for partner to balance over 2C also makes it much more likely that we have a lucrative penalty.

Penalty is fine in this specific auction. Probably if I had to make an agreement and there were no memory constraints ever, I would slightly prefer penalty. However, on every similar auction like 1D X p 1S p p 2D X, and 1H X p 1S p p 2H X I would MUCH prefer to play the X as takeout, and I have never made any distinction for this one auction, and in general hate making agreements for 1 auction that go against your entire set of meta agreements for similar auctions.

I think a bigger reason to bid 3N than wanting to be there opposite Ax(x) or Kxx is that you might well have no legitimate play for any game, and in that case you want to play 3N. LHO might lead a low diamond from the AK, or he might lead a different suit (say you have AKJxxx and out, it is probably right to lead something else in case partner has a stiff diamond). Depending on the level of your opponents, he might lead a high diamond and then shift thinking you had Qxx for your bid. This happens a ton against weaker opponents, because they are always giving attitude at trick 1. This happens sometimes against good opponents too. And of course partner might have Jxx of diamonds and the only way to get to 3N is for someone to bid it. I think 3N is certainly a reasonable bid with this hand.

When I read this, I coulda sworn the shape was 2452...was it edited?

Most common time it happens is when they make a lightner X and you are void or something and can redouble.

98xx

4333 with a good hand

passing 2H is lol bad, bidding 2h is very normal

Josh, you are the go-to guy when it comes to hands in bridge books. I found the hand you mentioned, it's : [hv=v=n&s=sat98hkt2dak86c42]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] and the auction went 1♥ - P - 1♠. And yes, they were vulnerable against not at IMPs for the 1NT overcall. It's a great 14, though. Incidentally, opener had a balanced 15-count with 5 hearts and did not double (probably fearing a stealing responder.) Responder had Q743 Q J9432 953. Also, Meckstroth comments that partner's sandwich 1NT is less defined than a opening strong notrump because "they may be bidding his suits, and then he has only two choices -- Pass and 1NT." No offshape takeout doubles? Unclear ... to be fair, double feels less attractive on this hand because both majors have been bid. 4-2 in the unbid suits is off shape. 4-3 is fine obviously. His point was when they have bid his suits (ie he has 7+ cards in those suits) he will have to pass or bid 1N. He did not say anything about when they have bid 2 suits that he has 6 cards in.

These same people who will never bid vulnerable at imps on a partial deal will also never double vulnerable at imps on a partial deal (zOMG IT IS IMPS WE CANNOT DOUBLE A PARTIAL EVER WITHOUT GOOD TRUMPS AND 8 TRICKS). It is so much safer to bid 3D here at imps than at MP vs good opps it is ridiculous. At MP you will get doubled whenever they have like 22+ HCP and balanced hands, and you will go -200 a lot. Here there is basically no downside.

Sucks for those people I guess, they are unable to make non ridiculous bids/passes, but they will be awesome on some deals where partner can compete to 3C more effectively when they have their 5422 with no values in hearts/diamonds!

pfft, gwnn was quoting me when he said it!

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Double gets you into the auction and if they're stealing you can still find game. If they are not stealing you have not stuck your neck out to go for a number, and you can find a safe partial. If the opponents have some fit and you have a spade fit, you will be able to compete effectively for the partial. etc etc, I don't understand why the decision would be pass or 1N only, there is middle ground.

Double is automatic to me, 1N is terrible and pass is pretty bad.

Natural social penalties will get these guys, they will never live this down/be forgiven and it will be hard to find good teammates with this on their record.

Yeah there is like 0 % chance that I would get this right at the table imo.

I mean...even jdonn is balancing! Come on!

Can't believe people are passing hand 1

4D is very poor, north has an automatic 3S bid.

What's the story, goldilocks? 2S is too timid, 4S is too much, 3S is justttttt right imo.

I would consider AQTxxx and out to be the textbook hand to invite in a minor over a 15-17 NT.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=5976&hl= Sorry gwnn! :) Btw, note that Jlall felt *very strongly* about doubling then! :) Amazing, that was on Jan 1 2005, exactly 5 years ago haha. At least I've learned something!

easiest double of the decade

This is a very good treatment, I think it is becoming more common among experts.

The reason I'd bid 3H is a simple one...we may belong in hearts