PhantomSac

Gaining a slam try in hearts and spades at the 4 level at the expense of having accurate slam bidding in clubs seems pretty terrible. 1) You pretty much never have a slam try in hearts since you would have bid 3H to begin with. There are maybe some 6232 hands that qualify, but they're rare. 2) You need a massive hand and great suit to have a slam try in spades since partner could have a spade void etc. Even if you have those hands you might survive forcing to the 5 level. On the other hand 3) If you have a slam try it's very likely to be in clubs, the one suit you can know you have a fit in. If this is the case, you will often need room to 3a) Resolve diamond controls by either side (the unbid suit) 3b) Eventually bid keycard in clubs (your suit), yes sometimes keycard is necessary, especially to bid 7. Sacrificing a bunch of 3 to gain 1 and 2 seems bad. Not to mention you still have no bid for outright slam forcing hands. 3S definitely showing 6 seems bizarre, but I guess if you believe that then having a COG cue is indeed not very important.

Bidding 2S would accomplish that, if you don't want to raise diamonds I think that's much better. Admittedly it sounds more like Axx of spades, maybe partner will work out that your hand is antipositional because of your hearts and not your spades though, especially if you get to bid 3D next. I guess we will agree to disagree that partner would bid 3C over 2N, to me he is 5332 at this point and you have just bid NT, I would not expect you to have a stiff ever (maybe with 7 bad clubs and a double spade stop) unless it was in diamonds, and I wouldn't see much point in investigating further with balanced hands (or stiff opp AQJxx) and stoppers everywhere. I don't see why Kxx is such a strange holding, it could also be AJx or something that is much more suitable for suit play. I dont think 2H shows heart length, partner is just showing some value there and he has no other forcing bid. To me it is very natural to support partner with support for his suit and a stiff and very prime/suit oriented hands. If he wants to find out about a spade stopper there is still room to ask.

BTW this auction gave me a headache, pretty sure I think COG is the best way to play here with 4N being a club slam try, however I'm pretty sure in all of my regular partnerships 4D would be a slam try in clubs based on our general agreements. I *think* 4H would then be natural over 4D showing 6-5, and 4S and 4N would be used as slam moves (in one partnership 4S keycard, 4N last train, in the other 4N keycard, 4S last train, pretty much showing a diamond control) under my general agreements, but think maybe giving up on playing 4H might be better (enabling 2 non keycard slam tries, one showing a D control one denying one). Having good general agreements is the best way to navigate through an auction like this that is very likely to be undiscussed. Even if those agreements lead you to play something that you think might be theoretically slightly inferior, at least you know what you're doing.

4S, they got me. At least I don't have to lead.

Not really, one might reasonably argue that something like 6223 would want to bid 4D choice of games as opener might have 2515, or x6x5, and responder wouldn't necessarily want to commit with 4H on 2 small. Even if opener was 1525, the 5-2 heart fit might be better. Alternatively choice of games might be useful even with 6133 or such, planning to convert 4H to 4S to offer a choice in the blacks. If one wanted to use 4D as COG here, they could use 4N as a slam try in clubs, or they could use 4D then 4N or 4D then 5C as a slam try in clubs. If one played 4D as a slam try in clubs would they use 4N as natural or keycard for clubs? Open for discussion, I was thinking natural though. Also, one might argue that there is no bid for a hand too good to bid 4S here, and 4D might contain spade one suiters with diamond controls, leaving a jump to 5S to show spade one suiters without diamond controls. One might also argue that with no diamond control it's very hard to have a 5S bid, so you could just bid 5S and assume that hand has a diamond control...it's not really clear. If you play 4D as a slam try in clubs you could easily argue that 4H over that should be natural anyways showing 6-5, it's not clear that 4H in this auction is just a cuebid. I mean how useful is cuebidding here anyways, you basically just need a slam try that shows a diamond control, and keycard, and maybe a slam try that shows no diamond control. It seems like 4H could still be your best spot even if partner was coming in clubs. If not playing 4H as natural then it seems something like 4H=keycard, 4S=slam try with diamond control, 4N= slam try with no diamond control 5C=worst would be a pretty reasonable scheme. If using 4H as natural then I guess 4S=keycard, 4N=last train (usually diamond control and not enough to keycard) 5C=worst would make sense. W/e I think there's a lot to discuss but I think the main issues are whether 4D is COG or slam try in clubs or potentially both, and what does 4N mean, and over 4D if it were a club slam try, what would 4H mean. Personally I'm very surprised because this forum and especially gnasher are usually very pro COG cue, and I am usually very against it, but it makes a lot of sense to me here when you still have 3 possible fits.

So you downgraded/were unable to count and missed a slam...wow!

One of my partners and I discussed playing transfers here. We decided not to because having more room opposite the cuebid is very useful (1 under good raise leaves no room for a last train, let alone showing your second suit or w/e). Also, as you said it just gives them too many ways in. I mean can you imagine if they got to bid 1C 1S p 1N(clubs) 2C=michaels. It would feel gross. Alternatively they could X and X, pass then X for a light takeout etc etc. The advantage of responder being very strong without a fit and able to transfer and bid again is pretty rare after a strong club and an overcall, but possible. Being able to make a lead directional raise is nice in theory, but it gives them a lot of room compared to directly raising, so in practice I rarely make the lead directing raise anyways. My goal is to win the auction or push them as high as possible/make them bid as inaccurately as possible at that point, the lead is secondary.

never seen that. But I once saw 2♣ in the OP auction intended as a good raise. Partner passed it and went 5 off vulnerable. It happens a lot. 1C ALERT Then they don't ask and bid 2C = michaels 100 %. 1C ALERT think think think WHAT IS THAT? OH, STRONG, OK! 2C = clubs. Basically happens every time actually.

A big mistake people make is to be in "destructive bidding mode" after 1C 1X pass. Usually the pass shows something like 0-4 or 0-5. At that point it is not unlikely at all to be your hand, and it really isn't unlikely that you have a game either. Just bid normally, and as roger said use 1N as your cuebid. Here 2C is showing a club suit and some values. You are bidding constructively. Don't do this with a lead directional raise because you might play in 2C, and you aren't telling partner you have a fit (he might want to bid game if he knew you had one). Don't bid with a yarb, because partner might take you seriously. Contrast this to if RHO had shown values somehow, then you can basically do whatever you want.

You have 3 card support, a stiff, and AK A for partner. You have no positional values at all, and a great hand for 5 or 6 diamonds. I mean seriously look at this hand. 5 of a minor is excellent. 3N from your side is basically a disaster especially vs non bad opps who are likely to try to lead a heart through on this auction. Partners hand is really normal. That should say something. I think it is really poor to suppress your support here in order to grab NT.

I don't even consider this a painful pass w/r at MP. We are a huge favorite to get 200 and if we have a game we might often get 500, or we might not get there or we might get to the wrong one even if we're only getting 200. They are not likely to have 10 hearts.

We are w/r? Passssssssss

♥ I knew I could count on you.

1C 1S p 2C, north will try to get to 3N after that and eventually they'll play 4S.

The context of the auction involves us showing the weakest possible 2NT opening with 3 hearts and partner making a further slam try. Given that, how bad is our hand? Right. We have already shown 20-21 balanced with exactly 3 hearts. In context of that we already showed a hand that we don't love. Now partner has bid 5C. With our "best" hands that contain a spade control, we would bid slam ourselves. So by not bidding slam, we deny our "best" bad 20-21 balanced with 3 hearts. After that, our hand is not really that bad. We have a source of tricks. We have pretty good trumps. And most importantly we have the spade control that partner has denied. My question when posting this was really should it be mandatory to bid 5D here with a spade control, or if we have a complete yarb with a spade control are we allowed to bid 5H? You could argue either way imo. Personally, I think if partner needs nothing but a spade control he should just bid slam himself, which would mean that the very worst hands with a spade control can bid 5H here. But we are still splitting it very finely because we could have: 1) Bid 4C to begin with 2) Having bid 4H, bid 6H now 3) Having bid 4H, bid 5D now And all this with an already narrow range, and a completely limited shape (3 trumps, balanced). Our hand is just not that terrible, so I think 5D is right regardless of whether you think 5H is ever a possible bid with the spade control.

Right, but if partner has that then the opps will be bidding something. They have 24 HCP and a double fit, AND all their values are in their suits. It is really relevant imo that if 3S somehow goes all pass, partner always has one of the "bad" hands, and not some perfect fitter where we have all the black suit values and nothing else (and if we have something else, partner has enough to bid game over 3S) where as you say even 3S will often be down (which at MP is a good reason to stop in 3S rather than bid 4S). But yeah 3S all pass is probably impossible when we have a 7-4 12 count, so worrying about it does seem a little silly though I think I would be hugely plus if it were to happen.

Indeed they let us play there opposite my Ax KQxx AJxxx xx. See! Opps had a big double fit with 9 spades and 10 clubs and didn't bid 3S which probably makes (especially if you don't find your club ruff). Wdp!

Gib is cagey, it's trying to get the opps to not compete over 3D!

I would bid 1N, RHO did not raise spades and we have an 11 count so it is very likely partner has some length/strength in spades. I don't really want to play a 4-3 heart fit even though it could be right so I don't like 2H though it would be my second choice. I definitelyyyyyy don't want to play a minor (matchpoints!!) so I hate 2m. I don't mind going slightly low with no spade stopper and no aces at MP white where I expect partner to open pretty aggressively, and think any kind of invite sucks.

spade ace is completely automatic at any form fo scoirng!!!!! /thread.

In negative double situations, if the person who passed later Xs it always shows a trap pass of the overcall.

Partner isn't "making things up," his interpretation is very reasonable, and in my experience it's normal if something would normally be keycard but it's not since it's needed as natural, the next step up is the one that's keycard. In this auction one might argue that 4D is needed as natural. But opener didn't bid 2D over 2C which he usually would with 4 diamonds. If he happened to choose to bid 2H with his 6-4, he would never bid 3N when partner bids diamonds, even with a double spade stopper that would be horrible. So opener does not have 4 diamonds, and responder does not have 5 diamonds (else 4D over 3N), so there can be no diamond fit. So I would say 4D is keycard, and 4S is just a cue. However if 4D and 4H were both needed as natural then I think your partner would be consistent with normal kickback rules. With my old partner Kevin we had a stipulation for these situations "if there is only 1 available bid, it is a slam TRY, not keycard." You have a whole level of bidding over 4C, but if 4D, 4H, and 4N are all natural, then that stipulation would override the "if the next step is needed as natural then the next step up is keycard..." thing. If 4N was not needed as natural though, then 4S would be keycard and 4N would be a slam try in our rules.

XX

You bid 5C red against white, or am I reading the vul wrong?

2C