PhantomSac

I mean most people would overcall 1N if they opened 1S showing 12-21 with 5+spades. Sure it's a level lower so that isn't a great analogy, but my point is just that if you bid it's not that you're pretending they have a weak 2, you're just bidding because you think you have to bid.

1N 2H 2S 4C 4D 5H 2H transfer, 4C splinter, 4D cue, 5H exclusion. Does the 5H bid imply a club void also (else why 4C?), or can responder splinter in a stiff with a side void, or are we just giving him room to have operated somehow with the 4C bid?

Accept and pass seems pretty lol bad, if you're going to pass you should make them make it sufficient so that they have less room. If you accept it should be in order to bid 1S. I would certainly do that with say KQTxx xx xxx xxx, but with this hand I'm just going to not accept planning to pass, with such defensive values/diamond holdings and a bad spade suit, I'm not that eager to get the spades in.

Pass, I don't find it clear at all though. I would def be bidding if we were say, red/white, but white/red there just isn't nearly as much reason to stretch.

double

It's different than over 2C, because a 2C opener is basically a GFing hand. If you have shown 20+, then 0-4 hands are useful to show so that you can know as soon as possible if you're in a GF or not. If you establish a GF at any point, you are still just starting to bid at the 2 level (or 1N), so you have ample amount of room to do whatever you want. I mean such low level GFes are what dreams are made of. However, if you don't have a game, it helps to know that early so you can put on the breaks at a reasonable partscore at the 2 level. Basically, you don't really need the extra step that much if you are going to establish a GF, but you desperately need the extra room if you cannot create a GF and are going to have to stop in a partial. A lot of bidding is predicated on this concept, either establish a GF or make a cheap bid, for instance after 1S p, you can think of 1N as a glorified negative. Partscore bidding is already going to be very tough in a system like this, I don't think alotting MORE room for game/slams and even less to stop low in partials is a great idea. And you are going to lose on game/slam bidding a lot if NONE of your bids establish a game force and everything is still 0+, because you will have to make a bid later to establish a force or show values, rather than just bidding naturally or relaying within your low level GF.

There are a lot of imps at stake if you simply convert +100 into -100. That is 5 right there, without them doubling you. Often you will go down 200 a lot if you were just beating them 1, so that's 7 imps, worse than missing a NV game! That kind of swing is extremely likely. And what if you convert -200 from bidding into -470 (surely not that unlikely to go down 2 in a partial if they can make 2S). They didn't double you, and they were cold for 2S, this is like a dream scenario! You picked up... 7 imps. So if you're going down 2 undoubled in what you bid, you gain exactly as much from beating them a measly 1 trick as you do from them making it. And the truth is we are in down three territory a lot, and we could easily be doubled and go for a huge number. If you go -470 instead of -800, you've saved 8 imps! If you go -470 instead of -300 (they forget to double you) lose 5 imps, the same as that +100 instead of -100 swing. This is just a really clear pass, even if you think they make it a lot (which I don't think they will).

Someone once told me that they didn't think it could work if opener could bid 2H with 3, and responder could make a neg X with 3, even if both of those were rare, not really because you might play a 3-3 fit (two rare things happening at once is extremely rare obv), but because it was too much to sort out later (for instance, which partner can compete to 3H over 2S if both might have 3?) I think if you will never make a negative X in this auction with the "problem" hand types that have 3 hearts like xxx KQx Axxx Jxx or whatever, it is fine to bid 2H with hands that you would raise 1m p 1H p 2H with, and probably most hands with xx spades will be included. I still think it would be wrong to be bidding 2H with xxx spades though, your reasoning for bidding 2H rather than 1N shouldn't be that you lack a spade stopper, it should be that you think 2H will be a better partial than 1N usually based on your worthless doubleton.

TheHog: 1S is obviously forcing, everyone in Australia plays it this way, how could anyone play it NF, Justin don't say 1S is not forcing everyone in the world doesn't play in that way, it's an international forum!!!!11!! Awm: I prefer to rebid 1S with 18-19 balanced and 4 spades. /thread

1S is not forcing but you need to bid 1N with your hand. If partner is something like 4315 you have a mountain. AKxx Axx x AJxxx is a 16 count where 4H will be a massive favorite for instance. If partner is 4-6 your hand might also be quite useful, like Axxx A Qx AQxxxx is a very good 3N. etc etc. In general you would only pass 1S with 5-6 and exactly 3 spades. Also partner could have some 18 counts, like 4135, that didn't want to jump shift with a stiff in your suit.

To me 4D then 5C would imply that I have diamonds and short clubs, I would just bid 5H here. Obviously the 5C bidders think they have denied a club control already.

haha that was funny

Obv pass, 3 trump tricks (hopefully) and out...whatever.

Hi Helene, In this auction more than any other auction in bridge it is "common" to rebid 1N without a stopper. Doing this maintains the integrity of all of your other rebids, and it is most likely the best thing to do with that hand type anyways. If you have say xx in spades, it is extremely likely partner has length and therefore a stopper in spades with RHO passing. Of course it is not 100 % or close, but it is very likely, and even if he doesn't you can still make 1N after losing the first 5.

Nope, couldn't tell you.

Lol. I guess you haven't read any of my posts in this thread. Here is a brief reminder; I have stated numerous times that I would expect few people to take 2D as a reverse, I believe I said less than 1 in 10 club players, and that you should never bid 2D with a pickup partner with a reverse as you will probably get passed. I suppose it's too much to ask you to read posts before making these comments though.

Your example hand is as usual pretty terrible. The opponents have 20 highs and 8 spades and have bid 1S, and you think you're going to get to play 2D? GL. I wonder how on your example hands you would find 2D after 1C p 1H p ? Of course you would not find 2D. That is because you don't always find the best contract in bridge, you try to maximize the chances that you do with priorities placed on games/slam/majors. Finding 2D can get lost in the shuffle sometimes. The correct counter argument to 2D should be a reverse because 1C p 1H p 2D is a reverse is obviously that "that is a necessary evil in your system, but it doesn't mean you have to play that way after 1C 1S X p, even if X shows the same thing as 1H would, because in this auction you have a cuebid available whereas in 1C p 1H p you don't, and spade bids are natural." The counter argument to that is "2S crowds your auction and is pretty generic, and it is also GF, so you are still in trouble with min reverse type hands that cannot show extras." Bidding 3D and forcing a preference to 4C with minimum reverses is pretty bad. Being able to show minimum 4-5 hand types might be useful, even though it forces a preference to 3C, because with minimum 4-5 hands, if partner is minimum also, they probably can make 2 of a major anyways. Producing 2 hands where 2D is better than 1N where they are always bidding 2S anyways is a pretty dumb way to argue that 2D should show a minimum 4-5 though

Thanks for your post Fred, I see where you're coming from.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double. In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts... I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand. That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best". Fred Gitelman Bridge Base Inc. www.bridgebase.com Phew I was starting to think I was crazy, or terrible at mps, or both. We all know you're terrible at MP jdonn :D Haha jk, obv Fred is a very successful player at MP as well as imps (much much moreso than me) so I'm definitely surprised to see him say he wouldn't consider bidding 2S with that because in my mind it was automatic.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double. In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts... I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand. That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best". Fred Gitelman Bridge Base Inc. www.bridgebase.com Really? You know this hand was a PH right (just asking in case you didn't notice, because as an UPH I would totally see where you're coming from). Do you really think 2H and 2S are both down 1 that often, or do you think even as a passed hand you will get overboard by bidding 2S with this hand? Or do you think you get Xed too often, or do you think that partner will almost always reopen for you anyways when it's right? Just trying to gauge why you wouldn't bid 2S on this hand. IMO 2H is making really often and if it's not 2S will often make. Despite my very defensive oriented holdings/negative LOTT adjustments, we are still only talking about 15 total tricks being necessary (and maybe even 14 if it's 8 and 6 either way as opposed to 7 and 7). If either of these contracts is making, I really want to bid 2S. I feel protected by PH status that we won't get overboard, and I don't think they double 2S very often at all. Even though a lot of the times it's right to bid 2S here partner will balance, I still feel like the times he passes it out, or reopens with 2N or 3m instead of X so we can't play 2S, we will be doing very poorly in general. I'm not really worried about getting partner off to a bad lead if we end up defending, or worried about telling them how to play the hand if we end up defending (given my hand), so neither of those is a concern to me. If they have a game, even if they can get us for 500, I expect them to just bid their game most of the time. Ofc -500 or more into their game is possible, or -300 into their partial, but that just doesn't seem to happen that often. As gnasher says, people are very hungry doubling the 3 level, but I think much less so at the 2 level. It seems like if you won't bid 2S here as a PH, you aren't bidding it very often, and that feels like a mistake at MP w/w in my experience.

How is that? If you pitch on the 2nd spade they play a third spade. You ruff in dummy and do what? I don't see how you are guaranteeing your contract on 4-2 hearts even if diamonds come in.

Yeah this, I wouldn't worry much about finding 7H.

With 5-5 in the majors partner would have bid 1S first. Saying that there's a decent chance we'll catch a fit is an unerbid, we will almost always catch a fit. Also even if partner is 4522 we'd still likely rather play in 3 of a minor than 2N.

Actually lobowolf you're right this is epic. After 3-3-11, we'll never again see that again in our lifetime. Wow. edit: THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY EPIC!!!!

I loled