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Thanks for the explanations, i knew most of it, anyway that was exactly my point this 1nt is matematically a great bid, because its happend to be good enough to show all 4 bids above it, ofcourse this isnt some bug in fibonachi, its just that the nature of those 4 bids in luke's system (which i like) is special, showing 6 card suit and limit hcp, which make it possible to show them all with the 1nt. You can say those 2c/2d/2h/2s in luke's systems are just bad and bad bids are easy to do better then, i dont think its true first because i think those bids are bridgly good, they mix constructive and discturctive power, and second i can give you an example very similar which happend to be in many systems, even today many plays 2h/2s as weak 2 suiter, and it happend to be that the 2d can show those two hands + more (strong alternatives) so its bypass the fibonachi limit. again you can say weak 2h/2s are just stupid bids, but fact is they are atleast playable.

I read that post here saying you shoud never pass with 4 diamonds and 2M, i just think its wrong, and think this hand if you decided to bid 1nt, then you better pass 2d, i dont see what you will benefit from going higher when you are confortable in 2 diamond with atleast 7 card fit, bidding 2h will could result in many ways, the better one is that the 5-2 will play abit better then the 4-3, but this is just one thing that can go abit better, on the other hand there are lots of things that can go wrong , and very wrong, you could end up playing 5-2 instead of 5-4, you could end up going down several times in 2nt when you have an easy 2/3 diamonds on a 4-4 fit. partner can bid game in either heart or NT and go down.

I would like to have your help devdeloping a new system, i have part of the basic structure but not all of it, i need advices for the missing part, and if anyone want to test it ill be happy to do it with him/her. So this is what i got 1NT ----- This is the part im most convinced about i was looking at luke's new system which use all the 2 level bids for a one suiter (6 cards) 11-16 and thought its a good idea, both constructively and distructively, but i find out i can get all those 2 level bids into 1 bid, 1nt, since those bids show a one suiter hand which is usually sufficent to play at the 2 level even vs a void, the 1nt will do the same job as 2c/2d/2h/2s together, which is a tehoretically(matematically) great. in relay thory its normally agreed that a bid of x is equal(or just abit better) to the x+2 and x+3 bids together, we are getting more here (Richard if you read pls dont luff at my ignorence in relay and explain, ill be happy to learn) this "more" is as i understanding due to the nature of the 6 card suit bid. 2c will be p/c (even with a void) 2D over 1nt will be a relay. The range of this bid is something im not sure about, could be anywhere from 8 to 16. maybe 11-16 maybe 8-13 will be happy to get ur opining. 2c/2d/2h ------------ Those bids are brozel like, they show heart + the bid suit either 4-5 or 5-4 2H show 5H and 4S. The idea of showing the heart at the 2 level, is to bypass the spade suit, when he got the hearts the opponents have the spades and we need to strick fast to deal with thier higher suit advantage. These two bids are unlike in the nunes will not cause the problem of losing a major fit, or getting too high when this fit isnt found, i also believe that the non set lengh of the two suits meaning eithr one can be the longer, will not be cause too many truble and will be benefitial as a distructive bid. The range of this bid is the same as the 1nt. 1S ---- This is the paralel bid of the 2c/2d/2h bids ment to show 5-4/4-5 with spades and another suit, The range of this bid is currently the same as the 2 bids, although i have develop a way in the past to make this range bigger. 2S --- I not fixed about this , but for now its showing 5-4 in the minors, the range is still same as before. 2nt and higher ----------------- no idea about it now we come to the part with most questions, we have 1c/1d/1h bids free to show: 1. all balanced hands, this can be seperate into balanced with 4 card major and balanced without 4 card major. 2. strong unbalanced hand too good for the higher bids. I have some thought of how to use those bids, but would be happy to hear new ideas. My current best idea is to use 1h - 4+ spade either balanced 12+ or strong (stronger then the range of higher bids) unbalanced. 1D - 4+ hearts 12+ balanced or strong unbalanced. 1C - balanced without 4 card major or minors strong unbalanced. Other options which i didnt think about too much 1d - medium (stronger then range, if this option is selected then the range will be low something like 8-12) and this 1d could be 13-16 1c - strong higher then medium (soemthing like 17+) 1h - balanced 11-13 , or more if we take the balanced hands out of the 1d. Well i had other options but ill end it here. One last thought was to use 2H/2S to show 1 suiter (in the suit bid) with different range then the one showed by 1nt, this is based on the idea that with majors we dont have to rush like when we only add the heart suit and they had the spade. This could be weak as premptive or maybe strong if its fit the system needs. Thanks to anyone who wish to help.

Ok ok since no one is guessing i'll tell you, it was Fred Gitelman. (maybe he will want to add something)

Well if 2d is not focing now, then you have a different problem, it would be hard to convince partner to try for slam even when he got 2 aces and a K of diamond, or a grad with 3 aces and a K. maybe you should use drury then bid diamonds.

Agree We need to bid slam when partner has 2 aces and the K of diamond, with 3 aces and the K♦ , a grand is likely. 2D is the way to get there.

Anyone wants to guess who was the player with the west cards ? You all know him or else i wouldnt ask, and no its not me.

Eric you are 80% right, some like free maybe f\play what you decribed but i dont. I play attitude which assume there will only be 2 suits in question, this is usually the case, when dummy goes down there is a suit which we usually know there is no point in switcing to, usually its the longest suit, this leave 2 suits, and when there are two suits , suit preference is the way, this is why i explained that my attitude is almost as playing suit preference. Now when there is a third suit we are in a little truble, and the way to solve it is considering the least of evil, i will ask myself what will make more damage, incaraging which might cose partner to continue diamond, or discarage which might cose him to switch to heart, in this case i think discaraging is worse because a heart switch seems much more likely to be bad. The side benefit is when i incarage a suit partner knows i cant want, he know i want the third suit , the non ovious one , here clubs. I usually give count on my second card to a suit, but i used to play the second to be suit preference which means i would have played the 7 then the 2 to ask for clubs. btw today i also play K asks for count, but i dont like it much since declarer with AJx can easily hold and win them both when partner cant discarage.

Your analizing is a post lead analyzing, could west know that before he led so he could have led a card asking for count ? maybe Could they know this hand will come before they agreed to play attitude and not a hand which would be better not to play count ? maybe Anyway they agreed to play attitude and not count. With AKQx when do you ever need to know attitude? If you are looking for an entry in partner's hand in ♦, then the Q is probably the correct lead (then eg partner can play the J from JTx to show it is safe to underlead the ♦ on the second round) Anyway, don't many pairs play A asks for Attitude K for Kount (or vice versa). It is odd that experts wouldn't have some sort of agreement on this. I think if they are playing attitude signals only, then West has got to lead the second ♦ to get a suit preference signal from partner. So East should play the 2 then the 3. Eric Your exactly proving my thoughts that someone who isnt into the ovious shift principle think differently then the way i do (even when no playing ovious shift) The way i play attitude and suit preference are basicly the same, if i lead from AKQ i still want attitude meaning suit preference, here it is between clubs and heart, discaraging diamond is exactly as suit preference for heart (well not exactly but it strongly suggest heart)

Nice, when west discard 3 spades after overcalling 1H , you know he probebly doesnt have 5 spades and therfore play the A of spade. if he was likely to have another spade then playing heart would be right.

There could be a chance if west has he K of spade, his last 7 cards will be KJ of spade and 5 hearts (or 4 hearts and a diamond) On the last club he will have to discard, if he discard a spade the spades are good, if he discard a heart a heart will endplay him to give you the Q of spade. You will go down if east will still have one high heart and one small heart because he will win the high, take the A of diamond and play heart. You can still make it if east has only a high heart since after wining the heartת the A of diamond will sqeeze is partner again. btw if west has also the A of diamonds it would be easier but the bidding gives east something too.

Your analizing is a post lead analyzing, could west know that before he led so he could have led a card asking for count ? maybe Could they know this hand will come before they agreed to play attitude and not a hand which would be better not to play count ? maybe Anyway they agreed to play attitude and not count.

Great! Then where is the entry to dummy for good diamonds (West will cover your DJ)? If we'll get to this then when west cover i will hold up my A, then later play diamond to the 9.

To be clear, west didnt play the K of diamond, if he would i think he would know partner want a club switch anyway, this is why they blame him, but it seems to me that after the 2 of diamonds there are ressons not to continue with the K. You dont want to help declarer ruff diamonds and prefer heart to partner and spade back.

Nice And i have the feeling it would work for you on the next time too.(but not for me)

Imo too much diffenence for 5S, i will feel ok to double 5D showing what i have, a long spade and a good hand.

I would double, first i think most play support even if didnt talk about it, second i dont think its such a bad bid even when playing t.o (and its is ok also if playing penalty) About the Nt ranges mentioned Although it might be tempting to bid 1nt with 12 hcp and AJx in spade, i think this bid should show more and this hand could be its upper range(although maybe its just too good) I dont really understand why the double is so out of the questions for those who doesnt play support double, i will bid 2h/3h over 2d/3d and dont think the damage is so big.

Iv posted a hand in the intersting hands section, which illustrates different approach to attitude.

This hand was posted in november's israely bridge magazine, In this section they see a little disaster and ask and latter analyze and assign the blame. I didnt agree with the analyzing but maybe i was influence by knowing the player who was blamed there, and also my believing in the ovious shift princple. I also post this as a response to a post about signaling in the begginer's section. So its goes like this [hv=n=s106haj2d54cq98632&w=sk8hq10743dakq9cj4&e=s72h965d7632cak75&s=saqj9543hk8dj108c10]399|300|[/hv] The bidding W N E S -- -- -- 1♠ 2♥ P 3♥ 3♠ 4♥ p p 4♠ p p D all pass It was an individual experts tournamnet west leads the A of diamonds and east plays the 2 agreed as discarage. West switched to heart and the contract was made. West thought east should play the 3 and on the next round the 2 which would ask for a club shift, the east player and the analyzer in our magizine think the 3 is not good since it can be from 32 doublton and think the 2 is just fine. What do you think ? I think the 3 is not high enough, declarer can easily hide the 2 and west wont be in a much better place (although still better) i woul play the 7, i think with no heart honor when dummy has Ajx and i supported the suit, any discarage in diamond would ask for heart switch, andd playing the 7 is simply showing clubs, and on the next round of diamonds the 2 of diamond will even makes this clearer.

I think stiff 10 of diamond can wait for now, i prefer to run 5 clubs and see west strugle.

You can find nice solutions in Ambra, they come in two machnisms. The first is called Gar and it can be excuted every time partner show two suiter (like in 1d-1S-2c) The second is called 2ntT, it applies after 1 over 1 and rrebid of 1s/1nt or 2m. There are also many relays like 1c-1d-2c-2h is a relay.

I think 1S-2D (GF except rebid) 2S -3H 3S- 4S P nothing good but since i cant rebid 3d, and i cant cue bid over 3sp (3nt, 4d and 4h seems natural) i have to bid 4sp and i dont think partner can bid more. If i had 3D forcing it would go 1S-2D 2S-3D 3S-4H (still dont think 4d would be understood as cue here) 5C-5D 5S-??? turbo could be a nice help here.

I bid 4S. If we are nv vs vul , you might consider double and look for a slam.

There maybe no way under full sayc, but as i look at it, sayc should just be your base system, and you can and should add better structures, one of those can be 4 suits transfers, on which the bidding would go. 1nt-2nt 3C - 3S which show a long diamond suit and spade shorness. (with diamonds and spade you bid 2c first) Anyway im not expert in sayc, but imo after 3d a bid of h (instead of the 3nt) shows a heart stoper, no spade stop, but it should also show imo atleast 3 diamonds which this hand luck. The 3 cards diamond is importent, as it present a good chance that we have an alternative to 3nt (5D) without it the chances are that 5d wouldnt be a good alternative and therefore we better land in 3nt without telling the opponents about the spade problem. in this example 5d is a better contract (although still not a great game) but you cant be right every time. btw doesnt 1nt show 15-17 ?

I like the change in response to this thread, i also think that its doesnt matter to much, you can bid you can pass, you can make you can go down, it is pure luck, and no decision is better then other. No need to worry about the result because it will eventually even out.