TWO4BRIDGE

Very interesting. I'd be interested in looking at your past thread ( ... sorry I missed it ). And, I agree with you, and I wish I had thought about the following auctions being GF : 1♣ - 1♦ 1M - 2M!

Bidding "up-the-line" is for folks "who still bid like ... Auntie Gladys " . The treatment I use for Responder's first bid is not novel .

1♠ is either real or artificial.... and always GF. This is my reasoning ( correct me if I'm wrong ): If Responder has 4 ( or more ) ♦ AND a 4 card Major ( either ♥ or ♠ or both ), he will bid: - - 1D first with opening values himself ( ie GF ) or - - otherwise will bid 1-Major first with less than GF values, even with longer ♦ Then, if the auction continues: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! , it follows that Responder's 1♠! is either : - - natural ( and GF ) - - or artificial ( and GF ) with the spade holding and strength to be sorted out on the next rounds of bidding . The point is that after the 1♠ rebid by Responder, Opener just makes his most descriptive bid -- NO NEED to JUMP....since you are in a GF. [ I can show some follow-ups later if there is an interest ] . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - One reason to NOT use the following ( somewhat ) popular 2S!-jump as an artificial GF: 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! jump ( which specifically denies 4 cards ♠) is that if Responder's real intent was to show a GF with ♣ support, he may not be able to show his ♣ support until the 4-level ! ! The 2S!-jump just takes up too much valuable space when looking for the best strain below 3NT.

GGG on the 2nd hand: Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget = 2S-jump over a 1H response ( you can show 3 card Ht support next after partner's 2NT!-ask ) . A remote 2nd choice could be a 4D! double-jump Splinter... ( hate to ruff Cl with those Ht honors ... especially if only in a 4-3 fit ) .

This auction starts out as one in the recent thread: What is 3h here? by mike777 ( in the "Advanced...." forum ). This 4th suit auction is only one of TWO 4th suit auctions where Opener has limited his hand AND there is NO Reverse by Responder. Some posters ( including KenRex.. ) agreed with the Bridge World Standard that 2H! here is F1 ( only forcing 1 round ) ... and 2NT next by Opener "could be passed" . Soo, Opener has to bid 3NT to show some "extras" ( after 2H! ) . Then 4D! by Responder could be Minorwood ... or ask for cuebids whichever you play...( such as in Yu18772's 2nd auction in post # 11 ) . As far as Opener holding 5 cards ♦....I don't think it is crystal clear.

gwnn was the ONLY other "Thuddite" to have the same auction as yours ! The rest argued over the utility of a 3C! rebid by Responder; and then were sidetracked over a side-issue -- as to whether a 2S rebid ( by Responder ) was forcing or not.

And to get SPLINTERS into the mix ( using BWS criteria -- my post # 8 ) you have to: A) go to the 4-level or B) jump-reverse, if possible . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - So for the given auction: 1D - 1S 2C - ?? 2H! = F1 2NT/3C/3D/3S = invitational 3H jump = 5/5 GF 4H double-jump = Splinter for ♣ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The folowing would be a reverse auction: 1D - 1H 2C - ?? 2S! = GF 2NT/3C/3D/3H = invitational 3S jump-reverse = Splinter for ♣

I copied this off the old MSN Message Board back in Feb, 2005 ( I don't know if it still holds today ): Taken directly from the Bridge World web site. ___________________________________________________________________ After a one-level new-suit response and openers simple new-suit rebid: (a) two notrump or three of any suit previously bid is invitational; (b) a fourth-suit bid that is either a reverse or a three-level bid is forcing to game; (c ) a fourth-suit non-reverse at the two level is [default:] forcing for one round, and responder may pass if opener bids two of responders first suit, two notrump, or a non-reverse minimum number in one of his own suits { forcing to game [leaf] }; (d) a bid one level above a not-game-forcing fourth-suit bid is natural (five-five or more) and game-forcing (to invite with the same shape, responder bids the fourth suit cheaply twice); (e) a bid one level above a game-forcing fourth-suit bid is a splinter; ______________________________________________________________________________ So, for the example given here: 1D - 1S 2C - 3H jump = natural 5/5, GF [ see (d) above ] And that is because the following is forcing 1 round only ( F1 ) and NOT a GF: 1D - 1S 2C - 2H! ( F1 ) [ see ( c ) above ] .

Jump-over-a-4th-suit bid = Splinter for Opener's last bid suit ( ♣ here )... unfortunately, not accepted universally, so you need prior discussion. If you wanted to show a 5-5 GF, just bid 2H! ( 4th Suit GF ) and then 3H again. If you had invitational values and a 5s/4h hand, I think you have to roll it into a 2NT rebid: 1D - 1S 2C - 2NT - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This is probably another advertisement to use XYZ .

I'm hoping some of this is helpful and not just a mere hijacking by me...... Here is a hand posted back in September, 2010 starting with the same bidding ( http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/41920-what-was-wrong/ ) : Zel, how would your "Transfer" auction go ?? [hv=pc=n&w=st82hakq5dakj983c&e=saj54hj62dq4caq85&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp1sp2hp]266|200[/hv]

Zel: What is the "Spade Sign-off" with the "inversion" ? And with the "inversion", does this mean Responder's 2S! = Clubs, GF ? and the other 3-level bids are still transfers ? ( and 2NT! = weakness [ like Leb ] ) .

Very interesting. Two observations: 1) Using Zel's Transfers, you do have the option of Responder showing Diam support first ( as straube ): 1D - 1S 2H - 3C! ( Diam, GF ) 3S ( 3 cards ♠ ) - ?? but now how does Responder show 5 cards ♠ with a slammish hand ? I suppose cuebidding commences, but Responder would have to bid 5S at some point to "agree ♠" unless 4NT = 6 Ace keycard . 2) I like the Zel's direct 3S-jump ( over 2H ) to show 6+ cards ♠,GF; but recall this quote from Justin in a previous Reverse/Slam auction ( http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/43695-reverse-slam-auction/ ) : " Having to bid 3S sucks " . His solution for a slammish auction is to make the Leb-weakness bid first, and THEN BID 3S to show 6+♠ AND a Ctrl in the 4th suit ( ♣ here ) . So, i wonder if there might be a little "optimization" in order here: 1D - 1S 2H - 2S! ( Zel's weakness bid ) any - 3S! = GF,slammish ... 6+♠ + ♣ Ctrl

You would also fare better with Bergen Raises ( showing 4+ trump support ): 1S - 3D! ( limit raise; upper Bergen ) 3H ( cheapest Ctrl cue showing "exras" after a limit raise ) - 4C ?? ( now Opener knows of wasted values in Responder's hand ... and sign's off )

You can find out about Opener's ♣-shortness ( w/"extras" ) using Swedish-2NT! = limit raise or better w/4+trumps: 1S - 2NT! ?? ..3C! = any minimum ( 3D! asks for shortness) ..3D! = Extras but no shortness ..3H! = Extras and Cl shortness ..3S! = Extras and Diam shortness ..3NT! = Extras and shortness in other-Major .... and Responder will sign-off immediately

I was wondering the same. I don't know how representative this is, but here are the results of that hand from the 20 tables: 2D .................... 9 tables 2H .................... 9 tables 1NT! ( forcing ).... 2 tables 7 tables got to slam on the following auctions: 1S - 2H, 4H - 6H 1S - 2D, 3S - 4NT, 5H( obviously not RKC) - 6S 1S - 2D( grandmaster ), 3S - 4C!( cheapest Ctrl cue), 4NT - 5D, 5S - 6S 1S - 2H, 3H - 4H, 4NT - 5D( 1/4 ), 5H - 6H 1S - 2H, 2S - 4S, 6S 1S - 2D, 3S - 4S, 4NT - 6S 1S - 2H, 3S - 4NT, 5S( 0/3 ) - 6S

I think I have a solution for Mike's auction since Responder doesn't have one trump honor to make a 5NT! GST. And that is to use the Josephine 5NT-Reply to the 5-of-trump asking bid ( named after Culbertson's wife ) . Mike's auction up to 5H: 1S - 2D! 2S - 4C! ( splinter ) 4H - 5C! ( void ) 5H - 5S!, as long as this would NOT be interpretted as a sign-off ( which I'm not sure of in this auction ), then: ?? ..pass = 0 or 1 of top 3 honors ( example #2 above ) .. 6S = 2 of the top 3 ( example # 1 above ) ..5NT! = ( Josephine ) = all THREE ( as in the original problem ) Responder can then confidently bid 7S over the Josephine 5NT-reply.... ( confident at least that they are not off the TOP trump honor as they could be with the 5NT-"asking" bid ) .

I Googled one of Eddie Kantar's posts. It had results of a bidding quiz. For the hands that used the 5NT ( GSF ) -- and there weren't many of them -- each "asker" held ONE of the top 3 trump honors. [ie. None had zero ] .

At first I thought what an elegant solution for this hand. Then I started thinking about athe 5NT Grand Slam Force bid. As I recall ( and I rechecked some references ), 5NT asks to bid 7-trump with TWO of the top THREE trump honors. That means Opener could have bid 7S holding: K Q T 9 x x [ In other words OFF the trump ACE ! ! ] A K x x A x x It seems that the "asker" MUST hold ONE of the top 3 before asking ! ! However, there is another possibility that Opener could have only ONE of the three top trumps, in which case he would bid 6S holding: Q T 9 x x x [ In other words OFF the top 2 trumps ! ! ] A K x x A K x

I must be wrong too, because I agree 100% with Ken.... 3♠

Agree..... but I play it as a long minor... puppets to 3C for pass or correct.

After 2/1 GF response: 1x 2y 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N) 1x 2y 3N = 15-17 1x 2y 2z 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N) 1x 2y 2z 3N = 15-17

What are your follow-ups to the 2D! Reverse = "may be artificial" ? I'ved toyed with the idea myself, including having a possible 3 card Sp support option . It is the ONLY auction that I would have a false reverse: the 1C open and 1S response, since I can use the GG ( Gnasher's Gadget ) for the 1H Response: 1C - 1H, 2S! = may be artificial .

How would you do it ? ( Opps silent ) [hv=pc=n&w=sakq853hak6d8c862&e=sj4hqt987dakj754c&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1sp]266|200[/hv]

You do have a point! I wonder if "switching the meanings" for 2NT and 3H is a viable solution?? for this ONE 4SGF auction: 1D - 1H 2C - 2S! ?? .. 2NT! = 3h ( and more than likely NO Sp-stop ... unless the stiff Sp Ace ) ...3H! = NO 3h, but have Sp-stop(s) [ But actually, I rather like XXHong's scheme for this 1D-1H-2C-?? auction ] .

Here is another approach after 4th suit GF ... as an alternative to Quantumcat's . I checked my notes and this was suggested by Priorknowledge ( a sometimes poster here ) . Granted the 4th suit GF auction 1D - 1H, 2C - 2S! takes up a lot of "room" for Opener's 3rd bid. PK suggests that Opener make the "cheapest constructive bid " rather than show 3 card support for Responder's major as a 1st priority. Thus, for this hand: 1D - 1H 2C - 2S! 2NT = stop in the 4th suit, but may have 3 card Ht support also This leaves room for Responder to show his real intent for 4SGF on the THREE-level: 3C or 3D = strong support for one of Opener's suits ( cancelling Ht interest ) 3H = strong hand w/Hts ( not necessarily more than 5 cards ), stronger than making a 3H-jump over 2C 3S = strong 4s/4+h or 3NT If Opener rebids 3H ( instead of 2NT ) it would deny a Sp-stop while showing 3 card Ht support. However, 3C or 3D by Opener may still be a "cheaper" constructive bid ( extra length ) in lieu of a 3H bid.