TWO4BRIDGE

West East - 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠! ( 4th Suit GF, may or may NOT hold 4s ) 2♣ 2♠ ( at least 5s/6d ) 3♦ ( good enough support with H x ) 3♥( cue or looking for NT strain ) 3♠ ( likewise ) 4♦( Minorwood in GF auction after suit agreement ) 4♥ ( 0/3, must be 3 ) 4♠! ( next step = dQ-ask ) 4NT! ( NT shows asked-for feature and may have K higher than 5D level; denies cK ) 5♣! ( general specific K-ask ) 5♥ ( hK ; 5♦ = no outside K ) 5♠! ( you have the sK too perchance ? ) 6♦ ( you gotta be kidding -- NO )

I think I should refrain from posting in the B/I. It is costing me too much in "Reputation" ( as if I give a rat's ass about that ). I thought this topic was a very good one, because " covering all the bases " for Responder's minor suit holdings is a difficult one.... and one that I have agonized over for a long time. My Minor suit structure over 1NT with most of my pard's.... sucks. Most Structures will address certain aspects such as "long minor suits" but omit the "both suits" cases... or some such. I've noticed many take the easy way out with minor holdings by just searching for 3NT -- as the OP said -- and miss slams. I finally took the time to list a structure that would cover "all the bases" without going into too much detail ( such as follow-ups ) but I see that I have failed in the eyes of the "up/down" police.... who IMO have a very condescending attitude toward the actual B & I's .

Thx.... but,how to you handle the "both minors" cases when playing 4-suit transfers, ?

( 2H ) - 4H! = to play ??

There are 12 cases : -- Long Cl -- Long Diam -- Both minors ( 4+/5 either way ) ----- weak ----- strong ----- invitational The following structure covers all bases, but may not be the best: Long Cl 1 -- weak [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ), 3C! - pass ] 2 -- strong [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ) , 3H/3S advance cue for long Cl as trump ] 3 -- invitational [ 1NT - 3C ] Long Diam 4 -- weak [ 1NT - 2S! ( MSS ) ] 5 -- strong [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ) - 3D! = long Diam ] 6 -- invitational ( 1NT - 3D ] Both Minors ( 4+/5 either way ) 7 -- accept Cl a) weak [ 1NT - 2S! ( MSS ) ] b) strong [ ditto ] c) invitational [ 1NT - 2C, 2any - 2NT! = no 4 card Major; may be 4+/5 in minors ] 8 -- accept Diam a) weak [ 1NT - 2S ( MSS ) ] b) strong [ ditto ] c) invitational [ 1NT - 2C, 2any - 2NT! = no 4 card Major; may be 4+/5 in minors ] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MSS = Minor Suit Stayman

5S can't be right here. It asks for a Ht-Ctrl... not trump quality. I'd go ahead and bid 4NT-RKC ( 03 14 ) ...( even with the Ht-void ). If 5C reply , then 5D! = sQ-ask... and you can stop in 5S if you don't hear anything you like. ... With a positive answer, you will be in 6S. If 5D reply ( 1 key card, most likely the sK, but it could be the hA ). ...Again, make a sQ-ask.... and same as above.

Sorry, I should have said "one agreed version" for Leaping Michaels : ( 2H ) - ?? 4C! = ♣/♠ 4D! = ♦/♠ 4H! = ♣/♦ 3H! = stop-ask 4NT = Blackwood 3S/4S = long ♠, strong Similar structure for a weak-2S open. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - You can find (2M) - 4M! = minors in at least 2 references: The Bridge Encyclopedia and Amalya Kearse's book: BRIDGE CONVENTIONS COMPLETE.

2D = natural ( I suggest forcing ) 3D-jump ( fit-showing-jump in competition or by a passed hand ) 4D-double jump = splinter

Is this really a Snap Dragon DBL situation ? [ Edit: I thought it shows 4th-suit only in 4th-seat ] .

(p) - p - (2H) - 4NT = regular Ace-ask If NO Ace, sign-off in 5D If 1 Ace, 6D ....( surely, the ♥K is onside ) .

After thinking about what you said, I tend to agree: ( 2D! ) - p - ( 2H ) - 4m! = ♠ / bid-minor, big 2-suiter and: ( 2D! ) - p - ( 2H ) - PASS ( 2S ) - p - ( p ) - 4m! = ♥ / bid-minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Edit: What do you do after the following ♥-invite auction by the opps: ( 2D! ) - p - ( 2S! ) - ??

I'd start out the same as lowerline where 1S! = 4th suit GF and may NOT have 4 cards ♠ . That's where we part company. West won't have to "jump" to 3D on his next turn; 2D will suffice in a GF atmosphere. Now, West -- with slam intentions -- will get excited if East raises to 3D. Hopefully, the pair can finds out about the lack of a Sp-Ctrl during cuebidding and settles in 5D. 3NT -- although makeable here -- may be hard to reach.... even with the greater bidding space .

Art... I have to thank you for this post. I was wondering how my "Reputation" was arrived at. I see now it is determined by the up/down voting in the posts. And thx gwnn.... for putting me on to that "little green arrow" for a quick check on my status. Looks like I'm the only one here "in the red" ( a whopping - 9 ) on Reputation . [ Everyone else seems to be "in the green ( like at least + single digit to + 125 for gwnn ) ] I never paid much attention to the +/- on the posts, but I will now. In fact I got a search list of all my posts to check back. I see I had one post where I suggested a SPLINTER instead of jumping to game. I thought it was brilliant, but ----- it cost me - 4 ... downvotes. Either they hate me or they hate splinters .... or both .

How do you know who these folks are ? EDIT: Nevermind... I just found out . I just clicked on the "vote" and up popped up the perpetrators. I may have to go on a mission .

Play "Trash ( or Garbage ) Stayman" to solve your problem. ( As mentioned earlier, the 2S is normally used as "invitational" with a 5s/4h hand ) 1NT - 2C 2D - 2H! = WEAK ( less than invite values) with a 4/4 or 5s/4h . ?? ..With an equal number of Sp ( 3/3 ) or greater ( 3s/2h ) Opener bids 2S ..otherwise PASS 2H ( 2s/3h ). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - When holding a WEAK 4s/5h, just transfer to Hts and PASS, ( forget about Sp ).

As Zel said the major is unknown... thus making it difficult for efficient Leaping Michaels' follow-ups. Now if the given hand where in SECOND seat, Danny Kleinman's Multi-defense for Leaping Michaels ( w/♠) is to PASS 2D! first and then bid 4m! next ( over Opener's 2H rebid ) showing the big Spade/minor hand. For the big Hts/minor hand in 2nd seat, one bids Leaping micheals immediately. But obviously you can't do that in 4th seat.

Nicely put, Zel. Another situation preferring COUNT first is to avoid giving Declarer a ruffNsluff on the 3rd round. Another situation for COUNT first is allowing for a suit preference signal next by partner.

But here Partner has a fit and "extras" so he makes what might be called a "super accept" with a 3D! cuebid: North K J x A x A x K 10 x x x x South A Q 9 8 7 4 3 2 Q J 7 3 6 void ( 1D ) - 2C - ( p ) - 2H! ( Rubens Transfer Advance ) ( p ) - 3D! - ( p ) - 4D! ( p ) - 4H - ( p ) - 6S

I usually like your methods and ideas, but not this one: --- Advancing 3C ( is THAT really forcing ? ) and then Spades looks like a cuebid for Cl as trumps . If 3S/4S are fit-jumps, which I like, then it seems 2S would have to be forcing.

If you play Transfer Advances, then 2H! .... and next 4S ( if partner just "simply accepts" ).

4D! splinter ( instead of 4S ) .

From my post #8 : I think this hand is strong enough for a game-forcing, strong-jump-shift. And, I've created some followups based on GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) over a 1H Response : 1D - 1H 2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification ): ?? .. 3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d .. 3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h .. 3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d .. 3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d, ergo club shortness .. Sweet ! After: 3S! - 5S ( asking trump quality : to bid 6 w/2 of the top 3 honors ) 5NT!( Josephine = 3 top honors ) - ?? some sort of Grand Slam try, showing all key cards, and Opener will accept with that stellar Diam suit.

A) for the hand shown, I'd Respond an immediate 2D! = 2/1 GF. Edit: I want at least 4 cards in the minor . B) For 4 card ♥ raises, I'd use Bergen and a modified Jac2NT ( even with 4 cards ♠ ). C) There are 2 ways to show a WEAK ♥ raise w/♠ and I'm not sure what is "standard", but you could use them to distinguish between 2 and 3 cards ♥ : 1H - 1S 1NT - 2H = 4 or 5s / 2h weak 1H - 1S 1NT - 2C! ( forces 2D! ) 2D! - 2H = 4 or 5s / 3h weak D) There also are 2 ways to show a 3 card INVITATIONAL ♥ raise, and I think you could use them to distinguish between 4 and 5 cards ♠: 1H - 1S 1NT - 3H = 4s/3h invite 1H - 1S 1NT - 2C! 2D! - 3H = 5s/3h invite E) And with a GF 3♥ raise and NO 4+cards minor : 1H - 1S 1NT - 2D! ( artificial GF ) 2NT - 3H = 4+s/3h, GF

Zel .... but then how does Andy show the "long Major" ( 6+cards ) hand ( and no interest in a minor ) , which is what his Responder's 3D! rebid-after-transfer showed.

I agree with the 1♥. Each side has "extras", so either partner would have to invite with 4NT over partner's 3NT regardless whether the 4th suit Forcing auction is: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! or 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! But I wouldn't be surprised if the auction ends in 3NT since each side has shortness in partner's first bid suit.