Flame

Wather a double is penalty oriented or not , is not primery set by the level of the contract, i never heard of an agrement such as low level penalty doubles. I can explain why it make sense to play such double as penalty but this is irelevent. The point here , there were screen, and the double was explained at both sides as penalty double (or even if not asked about) , this is it, no need for more then that, and any director should understand this. About my comment of taking his work, maybe i was too agressive but if a director say, you are not allowed to play p double at low level, it doesnt mean he is a bad director, its more like he got not enough skills to ever be a good director.

Well Ben i dont get you, im talking about the situation they play in 3nt and the partner of the multi opener is on the lead, in this situation playing double or the multi opener showing a good suit rather then J10 will help his partner on the lead. Im not saying this is the most importent, but this is what free said and i make sense.

I think a heart lead is bad, and way too optimistic, between diamond and club i think ill go with the club, if i had J1098 six time club and only J1098 four time diamond i think most will agree on the club lead, but how bad is not having the 10 of club ? i dont think the 10 matter that much when i have a 6 card suit.

If there were screen, this decision is 100% wrong, and you should do anything you can to get this director out of work.

Its generally assumed that the scanner will be able to infer the presence of a siff Ace... IC thxs, makes some sense.

How much control to assume in hand ? opening i understand begin with 2 controls. NT (15-17) i think should start with 3 cnt after our regular opening we seperate to 11-14/15-17 for the 15-17 maybe we can use 4 cnt and not only 3 , because when having only 3 we can just bid it like 11-14. Not sure, what is your rule about this ? Btw i stil,l dont understand what to do with A single, isnt it importent for partner to know about thsi A ?

About the Q, in the link given before , the rules said, if you have 1 control card (not controls, meaning A is one control card) you include the Q of the first suit, if you have 2 control cards u include the Q of your second suit (but not the Q of ur first suit) etc. According to this rule, you have 3 control cards, and therefore not include the Q of your second suit on the first scan so over 4c you should bid 4h.

If you were playing without screens, and your partner explained it as penalty, but you dont have a convention card to support your partner, then the director looking at your hand ,which looked to him like a takeout decided that the explanation was wrong and , that you ment it as takeout but only later turn over to penalty to support your partner and avoid punishment. If you have a CC about it, or if it was screen (where you explained your own call) the director can never change the score like that. Anyway the way you explained what he said make no sense, oviously there is nothing like , no P doubles in a situation and each partnership is intitle to play as they like, and in this specific sequence many play penalty.

Ben i tends to agree with you and free that that your way is better because most of the time they will have more hcp and we will rarly want to catch them. I didnt understand what you said about Free's idea, you said something like you showed the spade which i dont get, anyway free wanted to double when he got a good spade suit and pass when he got hearts or a bad spade suit, continuing just like you (double = pass with spades pull with hearts)

Thanks for the responses, especially for the example which like always is the best way to explain things. I like those rules, i didnt know about the rule to stop on AKQ or AK doubelton, it sounds smart to me. about the higher ranking first rule, this is the way it was on the links i read, im sure it can played vise versa just as well. I also didnt know u first ask for control number, good to know. I plan to play those scans on specific sequences on our polish club (non relay system) after 2h/2s/2nt opening that show premptive 5/5, after our 1sp-2c which is GF relay, and after our precision 2c opening, and 1NT opening. Im sure the efficienty wont be as good as the best relay structures but i think it will still be fine, i wonder if there are some rules or guidlines about efficientcy, for example how high should we start the scan or else its not worth it (too high) or is it better to give up on some distribution knowlege (like when we have 5332 or 6322 we dont know the order of the short suits , but when we have sgl we always know where it is) in order to begin the scan on lower level.

We are going to add some relay and spiral scan into our non relay system. My knolege of the subject is poor, i read some links explaining it, and i would be happy to read something better if anyone has a link. I have few questions. (and probebly will have more when ill try it with my partner) I understand we show controls ,K or A, together, longer suits before shorter, higher ranking from equal lengh. This mean the Q of the long suit (trump most if the time) will come after all the kings unlike in normal RKCB, am i right about this ? Do I understand right ,we cant show A single ? how can we handle this problem ?

thxs maybe we will play this too.

As i see it, passing with the spade suit when the bid spade, you gain one of two things: By free's system you can distiguege between good 6 card and bad 6 card, helping partner with the lead and maybe with competeting. By Ben's system you gain the takeout double by the 2Dder with something like 1633 On the other hand by always doubling with spades, you give your partner your suit and he then can double with other meaning then "pass with this suit or bid ur suit" this double can be set to be penaly or takout with 2 minor suiter. Also when they bid partner's major and he double, we are more likely to catch them when im strong and there is a misfit (in Ben's system i will pass those hands let them play undouble).

Ben , i thought i mentioned it before we play my pass as showing diamonds. I'll have to think about your suggestions, maybe its better.

Yes lead is importent but imo its much less importent then the other factors i mentioned , partner will seldom have such a bad suit aheaded with J10. Maybe you're right, ill think about it.

You open 2♦ multi weak major and the opponents happend to bid your suit, do you have to double or you just double when you got a good suit ? example from yesterday 2♦ X p 2♠ now my partner had J10xxxx in spade and didnt double, i told him he has to double or else i will think he got hearts and might compete, and also if im strong we might catch them on misfit. Was i right ?

OR maybe my partner has 6 card spade and his 2h was a psych :D

I would just believe my partner and continue with heart, even the J, why would partner bid 2d with Q10xxx and even if he did ' chances are he wouldnt later take out 2d D to 2h. Declerer maybe didnt know what to bid and because of my pass on 2d thought his partner would have heart lengh and bid 3nt with a sgl.

I dont agree, this was one of the esiest questions on the furum and almost everyone agreed its a simple 1D, considering pass at 4th seat.

I dont want to play strong jump shifts.

The first thing i would do is ask the opponents about thier doubles, it can help you in evaluation you hand. The second thing to know , is what your partner 3nt is, what is the diffent between this and passing,and maybe whats redouble here. After all the questions, if i have to choose its definetly not a slam vs 23 hcp hand with diamonds. If your partner can be a bit stronger u can consider maybe a natural inv 4nt.

I have two questions about 2 over 1. When playing 2 over 1 GF , do you play if as forcing to any game, or could you stop in 4m. When playing 2/1 as GF or inv with 6 card (only rebiding the suit is inv the rest is GF) how do you show a GF hand with a good 6 card suit ?

This is not the all truth. LTC has more power when both players base their bids on it. Ill give very simple non exact example just to explain my point. One suit Axx vs Q10x If both play LTC the Axx count 2 losers and by doing that underevaluation his hand, while his partner also counting 2 losers in this suit and overevalution his hand, this turn out to give them an accurate evaluation of 1 loser in this suit. If only one of them was using LTC , if that was the play with the A , the partnership would have undervalued the hand, and if it was the player with the Q the partnership would have overvalued the hand.

You have more ♠ than dummy, so your ♦ will hardly be discarded on your own suit. Ruffing a ♦ in dummy won´t work, he has 6♦, and the best you can achieve is 3 discards (unless yo want to discard on ♥ :D ), that means you must get 3♦ tricks before. opps , i think i saw 4 discards on the spades or something like that, well it was late at night and i was ...................... :(

This hand x KJx KJTx AJ98x is good enough for me to bid 2c over 1M, and just a bit weak to bid the suit over 2M. True because of the heart suit i will still find a bid (double on 2M) but i wouldnt dare bidding 3c with this. Double over 1M is probebly also better the 2c but thats not the point of this thread. One more thing, you mentioned spade shortness as something that will make you want to pass, its just the opposite, i bid 2c with this because i have spade shortness knowing my partner will have 3-4 spades and wont bid himself, if i instead had 3 spades i would easily pass knowing my partner will bid again.