Flame

fantony nunes system is in my opinion better for imps then mp, since too many times you will open 2m and end up playing in minor suit when a little better major contract exists. 2/1 with no gaziili is better at mp since its doesnt define the strong hand too well but those are rare.

Ok i thought the list I think for most groups its easy to say which system is better like its obvious that with 12-17 hcp and 5 cards major or diamond polish is better then 2/1. Now there are few groups that arent clear and i think its better to focus on them first. I decide to make it a 3 systems question WJ2005, 2/1 4D 2C , and a 5 cards light opening precision like system. (i added the precision to make it more intresting although different NT range make it a bit problematic here) Again most is clear i'll focus only on the non-clear groups. First I look only on major suit hands (5+ card major), assuming 2/1 1M to be 12-22 hcp, polish to be 12-17, and precision 10-15. I can devide it to 4 groups and try to rank them, the first two groups are clear * 10-11 hcp : This is easy precision is best, polish and 2/1 are behind * 12-15 hcp : Here polish and precision are the same and better then 2/1 The second two groups arent as clear * 16-17 hcp : I think polish is best here, 2/1 second and precision last, but not sure about it. * 18-22 hcp : This is even less clear, i think polish is best then precision then 2/1 but again not sure. Another group that isnt clear is the GF 23 hcp+ hand. Here i think polish is supirior to precision, but is the 2/1 2c better then the 1C opening with 23+ ? One resson its better to open 2c is that its create a forcing pass right away, this might help if opponents interfere, on the other hand opening 1C opener might be better on slow bidding to slam with asking bid like 1c-1M-2D in polish, or 1C-1M-2M in precision. My feeling is 2/1 is best here then polish then precison. Another question is the 5 club 4M hand 11-15(14) hcp, is preciosn and polish 2c better here then 2/1 1c ? There are also the diamond hands but ill leave them for now because this is gettign to long. Pleast comment.

Do you have it ? can you send it to me pls ?

I wish we could compare systems in a semi mathmatic way. First of all , i dont care about gadgets and complex her, yes its a big plus not to have to use gadgets and get a full nad simple system, but i prefer to focus on the design of the system. I have seen some tries to compare systems based on the bids of the systems, like 1M in pc is more limited the 1M in 2/1, 1D show more cards etc, but i think a better way to compare is to compare hand types, if we can define groups of hand types, and ranks systems of the way they handle those groups, later maybe we can do some math with the lackwood of those groups , and the score on the line with those hands (sorry for my poor english). This will give us a good feeling of those system, and maybe some idea of which system is better. The groups should be defined to support the differents between te systems, so if Im comparing pc (wj2005) and italian style 2/1, it will might look like. * 11-17 5+ cards major * 18-22 5+ cards major * 11-14 4+ cards diamond (no 5 card major) * 15-17 unbalanced 4+D (no 5 card major) * 18-22 4+D * 11-14 5+C 4M * 11-14 6+C * 11-14 balance no 4D * 15-22 5+C 4M * 15-22 6+C * 23+ hcp This is just a scratch group definition which i wrote as it came to my mind, but this is the idea, we could extend this to be usufull to compare more systems, but i believe its better to begin with only 2 systems and not to far from each other. (for this resson i choose wj2005 over wj2000 and 4d/2c style over better major, so 1d openings are very close. Please comment on the idea, on the groups and lets try to work this out.

I like inventing new systems but when i do that i have an idea behind it, there is a resson why i think my system is good, when i show my system i give the idea and why i think my system is good, usually the system is an improvment of another system, solving a problem in that system (and creating a new one ofcourse). Would be happy to hear why you think this system is better then others.

It doesnt matter what system you play, a bid of 2d or 2c "costs" more then a bid of 2H, because its lower, you can attach more hand types to it and will hve more space to expolre it this is a mtematical fact. my 2d 2h 2s was just an example.

imo 2H ekrens is by far supirior to 2D, it does a much better job as a premptive bid, since opponents cant bid 2H (or 2D in case of 2C ekrens) and because its not forcing , opponents cant just pass and wait for the second round (basically give them twice as much bidding space since they can divide the hands to acting immiditly and delayed action) and it free the 2d bid which could be use for more important tasks. for example if u play 2d ekrens u can play 2H 2S weak, but if u play 2H ekrens u can play 2D mukti and it leave u 2S for anything you like. So not only the bid itself is better, it also better for the intire system.

Dbl should be t.o 15+ with club diamond. 3C - 18+ good 6 card suit. 1NT- 18-20 nat usually stoper atleast in spade. 2NT-21-22 nat stopers. 2H/2S good point to play them nat to handle psychs, but without an agrement i would take it as either 2NT hand with stoper in the suit bid and no stoper in the other major. or a very distributed hand that cant afford partner passing my t.o double. i would bid NT with the stoper and partner will continue with the crazy hand. 3NT - good hand based on long and strong club suit.

if we do not play fit jumps ,and 3d would be forcing then its splinter

after north overbid of 3NT sounth must get to atleast small slam no mater what way. If u arent sure of ur system, bid 5S to ask partner to bid 6. he bid 6d showing short clubs and now u correct to 6h or maybe since u know he is short in club , he must have some hearts maybe u can bid 7. Anyway no matter what u cant stop short of slam after 3nt bid.

I saw some players play 2D as 17+ 4441 hand or some strong NT range hand (they play 22-24 but i might play it 20-22) I wanted to add weak in heart to this, which then give me 2h for ekrens and 2S as weak spade. I have no problem handling the 2D with no inference since i just pass with the weak heart and bid according to the system with anything else, but how would i be over inference ? One one side the possible weak version helps because they dont know what i got but if they do enter the bidding would i be able to survive it ? How would i handle 4441 with 4 cards of their suit, 4441 and a single of thier suit and strong balance ? Double with all those three ? after say 2D-2S-P-3S/4S.

Thanks

Fred posted his system long time ago here http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=2779 I wonder if this system must be forcing to 3NT or 4m (like Ben's system) because if not then i dont see how we can live without an option to play 2nt when opener is minimum balanced.

I dont understand, what did he write ? I would agree that 25 hcp is right but i dont think its due to better declarer play. I would even agree that the avarage declarer play has improved, but those numbers arent based on the avarage declarer play but on a good declarer play.

david do you mean you dont like any weak NT system because the 15-17 balanced is opened with a bid that show 11+ ?

Any thought of this system ? Especially on the new version with kokish 1h as on daniel's site. I like it and think the new version is a real improvment putting the polish 1 cluber in the same place of the precision's 1 club. Im considering playing it with a new partner.

I played 2000 and 2005, they have nice books, but those books are more suitable for intermiddiate players, you dont have too many sequences in them, and like many books prefer to hide the more problematic ones, and show the obvious. Never played motula but i think richard and ron might be right (althogh motula's book is old and there might be better things today)

Because i got the bad ressult here, I feel abit out of place to tell you this but i will still say it(because fly is alone fighting here), it looks like many of you doesnt really know how to play match points things said here like "partner's double is for takeout" or "if you pass this then partner should never double with a void" and others are not right for any sort of bridge especially mp. This is a game of chances, we take chance, yes they might make this 3s in our face, but once a friend told me, if you event got a doubled partrscore made in your face then you should seriously check your doubling because you definetly dont double enough. The basic idea in mp competitive is to double to get a good score, many times double wont get you the best score, but it will give you a good one, illexplain on the actuall hand, we might have 4h, we might have 5h, we might have 6 or 7, we might only have 3, we might belong to 3nt, getting to the right one of those will probebly give us the best score,but when we dont know which one is right its a good idea to double , doubling will probebly give us a better score then all other alternatives, if for example there is 6H we will get a better score then those who didnt get there, if there is only 4/5 heart we will get a better score then anyone who go down in 6 and maybe a better score then those in game (especially if there is 5h to make) double is the flexiable bid, it its very important to use it in any bridge scoring, in mp the minus of double partscore making is not suvire and therefore you must double alot. getting +100 for one down when you have 110 and you could get 200 if you double is very dipressing. I talked in general so pls dont explain to me that on this hand 4h is better because i agree, but i dont agree on the 4c bid, and not on the general talking.

btw the result was pretty funny, we had a slam but only 3 got there, we on the other hand got 500, so u might think we got a good score, but no the slam was a grand so everyone in 4H got 510.

I was surprise to see that only fly thought of passing this hand, i passed it on the same ressons he gave, but by now i understand it was wrong.

I think if you want a system you can play with a picked up partner you should go with the treditional way. This also works for the 13-15 nt range from the previous poll.

MP NO ONE IS VUL 3♠ p p X P ? XXX K10XX KXX AKX

Your line had one problem, you could go down in a lay down doubled contract. The first club ruff had no risk, the second club play (the Q) was risky, if it hasent been covered you had to ruff it, then when u play diamond they might collect A of diamond and K of club.

99% of the players i know play these, its good and simple. Personnaly i dont like them (although i still play them with everyone) because opener is sharing his his hand with the opponents, and second becuse the long trial is not clear enough and partner would be guessing sometimes. (some long suits want partner to be short, some want honor, some want one honor and not the other) I prefer system where 2nt ask partner about something, like the simple method i play with one partner, 2nt/2s ask for sgl, 3x is natural good suit.

I play 1♠ as natural but my partner doesnt know it yet. :ph34r: