TWO4BRIDGE

3C in balancing seat with opening values and a 6+ card suit.

I never met a splinter I didn't like. Opener, with all those controls , makes a 4C! Minorwood try ( Minorwood and not Kickback since agreement was at the 3-level ) and stops in 4NT or 5C ( to play ) after he finds 2 key cards missing: 1D - 1S 2C - 3H! 4C! - 4D ( 0/3 ) ?? .. 4H = dQ-ask .. 4S = ( 2nd step ) K-ask ( asks for cheapest bid K ) .. 4NT = to play .. 5C = to play - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Edit: Maybe Gordon's stop in 3NT is more prudent. Responder is limited. If Responder had GF values with a black 2-suiter, he would have first bid 2C! ( 2/1 GF ) over 1D .... and still have room to find a 4-4 Sp fit on the 2-level.

Good question. I don't know if the "modified" Inverted ( does NOT deny 4 cds M ) posters here play the Kokish version. With Kokish, only ONE side of the table is allowed to explore for 4-4 fits -- namely the Responder. That means the Opener can bid a Major suit "stopper" at the 2-level, suppressing for the moment that he may have a 4 card Major. - - - - - - - - - - - - EDIT: @ Ken.... Why don't you tells us how you really feel about showing stoppers "up-the-line " .

OK, OK.... I agree that whatever you play "you need solid agreements" as Frances said. So, here is another quote -- this time from the "Coaches Corner" of Pitbulls ...but this one is in favor of your side of the argument: "Some people play Inverted Minors DENIES a 4 card major. This is wrong , very WRONG. If you want to force to game and have 5 or more of partners suit , make an inverted minor rather than bid your 4 card major. No amount of arguments will ever convince me you can play “catch up “ to describe hands like xx AKxx AKxxx xx when you respond a heart to a partners diamond opener. You must go into contortions with 4th suit forcing and partner never gets a clear picture of your hand. Result usually is 3NT instead of +1370."

Are you sure it is a 4-4 fit ? Opener may only be bidding "stoppers" up-the-line on the 2-level. If Opener is required to have a 4 card Major to bid 2M, what does he do on the 2-level without a 4 card major ? Normally, 2NT would show stops in BOTH majors.

I have a feeling this topic has been discussed and rediscussed many times. Here is a quote from a respected expert ( another Message Board from 2005 ): "1D-2D! denies a 4-card major and ... there is NO REASON to play it otherwise. If you play it could have a 4-card major, then you will confuse the auction trying to checkback for a 4-4 major fit. Whereas, if you have a 4-card major, you bid it first, and if no fit is found, use 4th Suit GF and next raise Opener's minor to establish the minor suit fit. You will probably still be at a lower level than ( you would ) otherwise. So, it is counter productive to allow the single raise to have a 4-card major."

Anybody who is anybody DENIES a 4 card major with an inverted minor raise.

FWIW.... Max Hardy's 2/1 GF yellow paperback, page 42: 1C - 3S! = splinter whereas 1C - 2S! = preemptive jump-shift.

Splinter

@ Trinidad .... Thanks for your "science". I don't find it all that complicated. I like the idea for the both-minors case to ONLY include the Q of the agreed suit for the 6 Ace-RKC. I would suppose the Q of the other-minor could be included in the specific K-ask.

If I posted this answer, I would have received a big LOL. If I posted this answer, I would have received a big LOL.

How do you show a limit raise w/ 4 cards Sp ( trump ) ?

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Obviously, 2NT is not "plain vanilla Jacoby" .

@ Zel ... my post was positive toward you. I admire your system "from afar" ... not knowing the many alternative bids in the system ( hence my "blinking" smiley face in wonderment ) which would take up too much space in a thread... but not in a book, or booklet. EDIT: You might look at mikeh's profile. There you will see that he returned to posting in September after a hiatus of about 6 months because of "personal attacks" . He apparently was bothered by his own impatience as well.

For example, announcing the 5-5 may lead to losing 3 Ht tricks as well as say a top Sp . It happened to me the other day. Let's say here the 1NT bidder has A ( or K ) x x in Sp and Q x x in Hts... and Sp become trump. It goes hA, hK and Ht-ruff....and wait for the s A or K .

Ditto for this hand.

Fit-jumps should be ON in competition whether partner is a passed hand or not.

It would be nice if 4♦! were key card, but when suit agreement is first shown at the 4-level, then kickback next ( 4♥! ) by partner is RKC.... But for this hand, just go with an unambiguous 4NT! as key card for ♦. You can't go wrong with any reply. And as others have said, if partner shows 3 key cards, you can ask for specific Kings.

Additional quote from the expert who uses this treatment : EDIT: "The Neg-DBL, promises 4 cards ♠ but not necessarily ♥......or may have 4-4 in the Majors. If opener has hearts but not spades, he bids hearts. With both, he bids spades. This info comes in handy if the bidding gets into the stratosphere."

The following is not standard, but has solved some problems for the folks who use it: 1C - ( 1D ) - ?? ................. DBL = promises 4 cards ♠ but says "nada about ♥" ................. 1H = 4+ cards ♥ ................. 1S = 5+ cards ♠

Someday I'll have to buy your book on your relay system ... you always make it look so easy ... :blink:

Cyber... makes a pretty good point. It might be easier to unravel the suits [ EDIT: especially if Opener doesn't have the 2NT rebid after a waiting response ], when Responder bids 3D ( over 2C ) showing a 5+cards w/2 of the top 3 honors.

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IMPs [hv=pc=n&s=s7h72daq764caqjt3&n=saqj2hakjdkjtck65&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p2cp2d(waiting%2C%20positve)p2n(22-24)p4c(Gerber)p4s(2%20Aces)p7cppp]266|200[/hv] Responder realizes we are missing between 3 and 5 hcp . Some just bid Gerber and took a flier at the grand slam when no ace was missing. How would you handle this ? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - One possibility is the structure from the May 2006 ACBL Bulletin : 2NT - 3S! = relay to 3NT 3NT - ?? then: .......... Pass = to play; ............. ( Needed since direct 3N is major 44 ) .......... 4C = slam try in ♣ ( later versions reverse the 4C/4D attempting to "right-side" ) .......... 4D = slam try in ♦ .......... 4H = ♥ splinter, both minors .......... 4S = ♠ splinter, both minors After the 4S-splinter, I don't know the follow-ups. My suggestion for ANY of the options above is for Opener to just REPLY as if RKC were "asked" . For example if Responder had bid 4C ( the long minor ) , then 4D ( next step ) = 0/3 ; 4H = 1/4, etc. And for the BOTH minor cases, Opener would reply 6-Ace RKC . Responder can continue with some additional "asks", if necessary, and then place the final contract in CLUBS for "pass or correct" ... or place it in 6/7NT.