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Just my own opinion. Interesting question from someone who typed TANSTAAFL on another thread :P If "JMOO" is a Longism (actually Heinleinism B) ), it's not one I remember. OTOH, TANSTAAFL is the quintessential Lazarus Long.

♠♥AK98752♦T♣AKJ96 ♠KQ8643♥QT♦K86♣T3 I hate opening 2 suiters 2C, but N's hand needs desperately to tell a certain kind of story. Assuming 2D Waiting, and nothing else: 2C-2D; {S's hand is too good for 2S} 3H-4H; 5C-?? Just on general values and the presence of the HQ, S should now bid 6H To Play. If Responder doesn't have H support but does have C's: 2C-2D;3H-3N;4C-etc should get Us to at least 5C I'll note that although I've chosen a different sequence from many, I find most of the other posts, particularly mikeh's, to be thoughtful.

What does "JMOO" mean?

I strongly disagree that pass is a logical alternative. ♠KJT74♥4♦93♣KQ972 1D-1S;-1N-?? Why? Do you somehow think 2N after 1D-1S;-1N-2C;-etc will play better than 1N if your min GOP is 44 or 45 in the red suits? That is what is most likely here after all... And if Our agreement is that Opener could have 1-S on this auction, then rebidding 2S could be =very= dangerous. If you feel you have to be able to take a bid systemically with this hand, you have to design System to cater to it. FWIW, if you were not playing NMF, you could rebid 2C with this hand. OTOH, you would not be able to easily handle many other hands where NMF is useful. TANSTAAFL. Every choice we make has a cost. Overbidding one's hand is also a choice. And it also has a cost. Pass is the most underrated and underused call in Bridge.

I have no idea where Hannie is getting his accurate-to-5-decimals statistics. I'd suggest taking them as being firmly tongue-in-cheek unless verified... Playing Strong NT's, the goal is to be able to describe as many of the important shapely responding hands of differing strengths below game as possible since the expectation is that Responder will have invitational values opposite a 1N opening. The big issue here is not accurate game bidding but rather accurate slam bidding, so the potential effect on your score is significant even if the hands where it matters come up rarely. IMHO invitational hands exist so we should have invitations. I also firmly agree with Grant Baze and others who say that using Stayman w/o a 4cM as an invite makes things far easier for the Defense. IME, I have found minor suit stayman to be more useful than minor suit xfers since for a= very weak hands with 6+m I prefer to just blast 1N-3m (let Them try and find Their fit at the three level.) b= weak hands with 6+m I can do as above or just pass 1N c= invitational hands with 6+m I just bid 2N d= GF hands with 6+m and slam interest I use the sequence 1N-2C;any-3m There are many 1N structures out there and lot's of debate as to what is optimal. Don't worry about it. Make sure you and partner are playing something reasonably standard and comfortable for the two of you. Unless you want to put a =lot= of work and ATT memory effort in. Anything close to "optimal" is going to have to be complicated and have (un)reasonably high memory overhead.

That's a bit of masterminding, don't you think? ??? In what way is bidding your hand as accurately as the auction and your values allows "masterminding"? Or do you really think ♠KQ♥KJT95♦JT♣KQ94 has extras on this auction? *The average flat 15 HCP has 5 controls. This has 3. Which the average for a 10 count. You are control poor. *Apriori the DJ is not taking any tricks. It might as well be Dx. *KQ tight, like any HH tight holding is not anywhere as good as having your honors in longer suits. Even if GOP has 6+S, HH tight is a potential communications problem. Even before the bidding starts, this is a minimum. Side Bar: 5422 containing a 5cM is not a traditional shape for opening 1N systemically for any range except the Kamikaze in any write up I've ever seen. *Then the auction screams that GOP is likely to have S shortness and They have 9+S between them. Do you really think the SQ from KQ tight is a working (as in "likely to take any tricks") card? It might as well be a Sx. *Even if your flat 15 was a good flat 15, and at this point we've definitely proven that the example hand is not, you still are not likely to be strong enough to take a Free Bid or make a X. GOP may have as few as 6 HCP for their Negative X of 1S. Playing 3N or 4ofasuit (let alone 5ofasuit...) with a flat 15 + the average 6 is not likely to get Us a good score. And if They can work out that you are doing this, the Red Card is going to hit the table at supersonic speed. The example hand is a minimum. The percentage action is pass. Here's a 15 count I would compete with in this auction: x.AKJxx.xx.AKxxx This hand has the playing strength of the average ~20 count.

You can count me in, at least :P Are you seriously suggesting that one should be able to foresee this auction when one opens 1♥? Count me out. Roland ♠KQ♥KJT95♦JT♣KQ94 This is a miserable collection of picture cards that unfortunately is too strong to not to open. This is a control poor (bad.) 5422 (bad. they often play 1-2 tricks more poorly than their HCP suggest.) 15 count. Given the likely wasted DJ (bad), this hand is really only 14 working HCP. Opening a Standard 1N= 15-17 lies both about this hand's trick taking strength and its shape. Even opening it 1N= 14-16 has flaws on the same two fronts. After 1H-(1S)-X-(3S); this hand gets even worse since the SQ is now effectively a Sx. Now we likely only have 12 working HCP. Anyone who thinks they have extras holding this hand in this auction is not evaluating correctly. You have a minimum. Bid it like a minimum. GOP's X is unlimited. The auction is not over. Limit your hand so GOP has the best information you can give them to make the correct decision. ...and for those of you agonizing over the fact that GOP may be stuck if you pass: Yes, sometimes preempts work. That is reality. Accept it like an adult. OTOH, lying about your hand in order to "protect" against Them stealing the board is a good way to get bad scores on not just this board, but scores of others.

♠AKTxxx♥x♦AKQxx♣x Ummm, after a 1C opening there is no Standard way to show this S+D two suiter using either 2N! (shows H+D here) or 2C! (shows S+H here)?

ROTFLMAO... *sigh*

w/ =1264 after 1D-(4H)-X;-?? I'm bidding 5D unless the D's are weak and the C's are chunky. One thing I am =not= doing is implying that my hand is very flexible as to strain. We are playing 5m. It's just a choice as to which m. Disagree that all of =4333, =5224, =4342, =5323, =3334 Responders "must" X if they have values in this auction. Particularly in the case of the 4333's. Sometimes the most likely way to get a good score is to Defend. Especially when there is a decent chance that We are "taking the last guess." I agree w/ Robson and Segal that We should never take the last guess. I also disagree about pass being clear here. GOP's X suggests a hand not suitable to defend. Unless our hand is more suitable to defend 4H than to play, we should bid. Regardless of the form of scoring.

I'm with Roland all the way on this, and I help teach enough lower level players that I think I have a reasonably decent idea as to how most of their minds work. Beginners and Intermediates are still learning what the DEFAULT language of bidding is for their area. The vast majority are just developing and learning how to apply logic and visualization to a bridge context. etc. etc. Conventions and pet treatments are more effort for them to learn that, if done right, require a lot of attention that in most cases would be better spent on other more fundamental things that are going to occur or be stressed more often. Then there is the memory and judgement overhead required to play whatever convention or pet treatment we are talking about correctly. Take Roland's challenge: =W/O= prior discusion except the agreement to play Namyats, how many of you are =sure= that you and a random advanced+ partner will get =all= of the possible Namyats auctions right and that you will be on the same wavelength with partner as to what hands open Namyats and what hands open 4M? If you are honest, it requires a substantial partnership effort to play most conventions or pet treatments correctly. Even the common ones. Let alone the more esoteric ones like Namyats or the "Steve Burgess 74 Opening" or ... Beginners and Intermediates will improve their game and their enjoyment of the game more by spending that same amount of effort on other things. IMNSHO a forum where I see people not sure how to bid 54 in the majors opposite a NT opening when playing Stayman and Jacoby Transfers is =NOT= the place to be adding esoteric conventions and treatments to the discussion. Especially if all you are going to do is mention them w/o really explaining them. Look at what I had to post to =really= explain NMF in another thread. Then reconsider whether you are doing B/I's any favors by telling them to use a convention or treatment you don't fully explain rather than how to bid something using Standard.

North Deals: ♠94♥Q73♦K9♣AKT742 ♠AJT♥AK54♦A84♣J93 1C-(1D)-1H;2C-2D!; {after all, isn't your hand worth a cuebid of Their suit?} Opener will probably now bid 2N since they have a minimum w/ D's stopped. Now Responder can drive the auction to slam in C's or NT. {and as an added bonus, the hand that dove into Our auction is on Opening lead and very likely to blow up a trick for the defense and/or tell Declarer something important about the hand when they lead}

Whoa! Please do not put words in my mouth or attribute attitudes to me that I have not expressed. Conventions and "pet" ways of bidding hands in a non standard way are for solving specific problems BY AGREEMENT within in the context of a SPECIFIC partnership. They are NOT things that a player can count on being in place when sitting down with a new partner of their level. Nor should they be. I am a self-professed Mad Scientist and have been since I first started playing, so there is no way that I'm against using Theory and Gadgets. However, it is unfair, unreasonable, and =unkind= to tell beginners and intermediates to add or use some non-standard convention or treatment whenever they come to us with a bidding problem! =1st= we should tell them how best to solve the problem using Standard methods. (Richard made a point on this in another thread that I think was well made and perhaps not as respected as it should have been. Unfortunately, he seems to have forgotten his own POV in this thread.) =Then= and only then we should mention OPTIONAL pet conventions and treatments beyond Standard for handling a specific problem. Otherwise, we are making it more difficult rather than less for newer players to get enough experience and bidding judgement to be able to play in most situations.

Very well said. Especially Point 1.

I like 4N, and not just for the reasons Luis has given. 4N also implies that my hand is a bit on the flexible side. After, all if I am 44 or 54 in the minors, then I have to be 32 or 31 or 22 in the Majors. ...and that mean that if GOP had 5 S's and was making the best of their bad choices, they might very well find a way to keep S's under consideration. I'd also note that a 4N rebid has a large chance of causing the auction to "run off the rails" if used with a partner not sophisticated enough for it. Before you make what may be a $2 bid, make sure you do not have a $.50 partner...

*checks to make sure... ...yep* Folks, this is the _Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion_ area. Namyats does not belong here. Neither does anyone's pet conventioal or preemptive way of bidding shapely hands that is not Standard. Void....AK8xxxx...T...AKJ9x Playing KISS SA or 2/1 GF or whatever; the call here is to open 1H Possible Uncontested Auctions: If it goes 1H-1S or 1N; then 3C ...which isn't perfect but should get you to Game. If CHO 2/1's, you don't let the bidding stop until you've explored slam. Possible Contested Auctions: It doesn't matter. You are never letting the opponents play this board below slam and if They do compete to 6 you can decide whether tp X them or bid 6 yourself based on the previous auction. No matter what, if They bid 7 then you are going to X Them. Regardless of what the Bridge Gods deal you, always make a plan for all likely general directions the auction might take before you decide what to do.

Pass Is a LA. After all, you are a minimum. Even if you are a 55 minimum 2C followed by 2S over 2H or 2D. Playing NMF and the modern style where Responder's 2nd round Jump Rebids are Inv, these are all GF sequences w/ 6+S. Good Luck. 2C followed by 3C over 2H or 2D or 2N Playing NMF, this is an Inv hand w/ 5S+5C or 4S+6C depending on agreements. 2C followed by 3S or 4C over 2H or 2D or 2N Interestingly, I don't think I've ever seen a definition for Opener's Jump Rebids after NMF... 2S Is a LA. However, you could be in trouble if your agreements include that Opener is allowed to rebid 1N w/ a stiff baby S. Say 12-14 =1453... 3C Playing NMF, this shows a weak hand with 4S+6C. Since 55's are more likely than 64's, I can see some sense in redefining this sequence to show the 55. The big problem is that you may very well end up playing at the three level w/o a fit or 23+ HCP. Redefining the sequence to show Inv 5S+5C solves the strength issue, but not the possible misfit issue (and if you use 1D-1S;1N-3C to show 5S+5C Inv, you should redefine 1D-1S;1N-2C;nosupport-3C as a GF 55). 3S Usually played as a Inv hand w/ 6+S nowadays. "Back in The Day" w/o NMF this was GF. When playing NMF, any use of NMF promises an Inv+ hand.

NMF is used by Inv+ Responding hands. Although invitational hands are the most common, Responder may also be using NMF with various GF hands that are in some way hard to describe using other sequences: GF a= any of the traditional NMF shapes GF b= Responder has 6+ cards in their first bid Major. GF c= Responder is two suited w/ M+m or S+H. (There is also a rare invitational hand: 4M+6m in the NMF suit.) Since Responder may be GF instead of invitational, Opener's responsibility is to keep the auction as low as possible while telling Responder the most important feature of their hand feasible. This by necessity means that Opener's primary responsibility is either to show 3card support for Responder's Major or show an unbid 4card H suit depending on the auction. This approach is sometimes called "show H's first": 1C-1H;1N-2D!2h three card support .....................2s 4 S's in a =4333 hand (with 4??4, the auction would be 1C-1H;1S). .....................2n D Stop(s) .....................3c catchall if nothing else possible .....................3d D raise w/ maximum, no D stop, and 4+D 1C-1S;1N-2D!2h 4+H .....................2s three card support .....................2n D Stop(s) .....................3c catchall if nothing else is possible .....................3d D raise w/ maximum, no D stop, and 4+D 1D-1H;1N-2C!2d catchall if nothing else is possible .....................2h three card support .....................2s 4 S's in a =4333 hand (with 4?4?, the auction would be 1D-1H;1S). .....................2n C Stop(s) .....................3c C raise w/ maximum, no C stop, and 4+C 1D-1S;1N-2C!2d catchall if nothing else is possible .....................2h 4 H's .....................2s three card support .....................2n C Stop(s) .....................3c C raise w/ maximum, no C stop, and 4+C Sometimes when the auction goes 1m-1M;1N, Responder has a weak hand w/ 4M+6m in the NMF suit. When 1m-1M;1N-2om! is NMF, then 1m-1M;1N-3om! is To Play. There is also "NMFish" available in the following auctions: 1C-1M;2C-2D! NMF with Inv+ (where Inv+ is defined as 10+ HCP) values just like the auction had begun 1C-1M;1N-2D! (yes, 1C-1M;2C-3D! is To Play. Usually with a minimum =2461 or =4261) 1D-1M-2D-3C! NMF with GF values and a similar schedule of responses as 1D-1M;1N-2C! GF values are required here because Opener's cheapest NT rebid is 3N... So the =1st= thing you need to do is decide whether you hand is at least Invitational or not: ♠KJT74♥4♦93♣KQ972 1D-1S;1N-?? Opposite a 12-14 HCP flat hand (or worse something like =1453) is your hand Invitational? Probably not. Pass 1N or rebid 2S To Play Replace the SJ w/ the SQ or add the CJ to the hand and then you have a minimally invitational hand that can afford to use NMF.

♠AKTxxx♥x♦AKQxx♣x A jump shift or a reverse by Overcaller has to be GF or how in the world are you going to GF and describe your hand at the same time? Give GOP xx or Hx of spades, and please explain how I'm going down in 4S w/o a ruff or some other surprise happening? If GOP has xx of S's then S's are Jx:Qxx or H:Hxxx I think everyone reading this can play any of those layouts for no more than 1 loser. So if GOP has a S fit for you and =nothing= else, you are losing at most 1S+1H+1C and taking 10 tricks to make 4S. If GOP happens to have a double fit in S+D w/ us (not unlikely on the auction) things rate to be even better. GOP rates to not be broke on this auction or the opp's would not be dying in 1N. Even better for Us, the hand that rates to have the delicate holdings is on opening lead, possibly blowing a trick in their hand, and must risk finessing the opening bidder on opening lead into our hand. What reasonably likely layout are you afraid of not making 4S with here when We have a S fit (or even if GOP has a stiff S honor)?

Sorry, I evidently tried to cram too much into one post. I'd rebid 2D in this auction w/ KTxxxx.x.KQxxx.x or any other hand w/ extras compared to a minimal overcall (say 5 or 6 losers and appropriate values and shape). If GOP has 3 good cards after this I expect them to GF. If GOP has 2 good cards after this I expect them to do something reasonable. If GOP has 1- good cards after this I expect them to pass or take a preference. I'd rebid 3D in this auction w/ AKTxxx.x.AKQxx.x or any other hand where I want to GF (say 4- losers and appropriate values and shape). Basically, I GF with any hand that expects to make game opposite a hand with 1- good cards.

I like Winstonm's answer because it shows both the importance of having agreements with partner as well as the importance of always thinking during auctions and making the bids that best help partner given the context of the current board.

♠AKT♥J8♦J9542♣K84 (1H)-1S-(2H)-?? 11 HCP not counting the wasted HJ +1 likely length trick in D's => easily a 3card limit raise of S's. I'd prefer to have 4card support, but Invitational values and 3card support are still Invitational values and 3card support. Depending on your partnership agreements, either a 3H cue bid or a Negative X followed by S raise shows this hand. Most pairs would use an immediate cue bid to show a Inv+ hand with 3+ card support.

Many good pairs define X's as T/O through 4H and penalty oriented with convertable values from 4S higher. For those pairs, 4N is for T/O. Playing SA or 2/1 GF with most expert partners w/o much discussion, I'd assume this agreement. 4H under those circumstance is automatic. If playing with an non-expert partner who I was not sure of, I'd assume 4N was for the minors and bid 5D. However things turn out, GOP and I are making sure we are on the same wavelength ASAP after this hand!

1= 6511 with all values in unbid suits has enormous playing stength. Even if CHO is broke, you rate to be relatively safe if you find a fit, and the chance of finding that fit is much higher than if you have some 54?? hand. Either way, you are introducing a new suit into a mistfit auction opposite a CHO who not only has passed, they have passed when you have previously invited them to do anything else rather than pass. Common sense (or simply not being suicidal) dictates you =must= have extras. Your 2nd bid may not be Forcing, but it is =highly= encouraging. More, 2= When the opp's stop in 1N, CHO almost certainly has at least moderate values. 3= Holding KTxxxx.x.KQxxx.x after (1C)-1S-(1N)-pa;pa-?? , just what do you think you need to make a Game? The answer is a fit and 2-3 good cards from CHO. The odds of Us having a 6:2 S fit or a 5:3 or 5:4 D fit are very high on this auction. CHO is likely something like =2533 or =2623 with moderate values. Since you can make Game with most of the hands that CHO is likely to hold, you must bid accordingly. We bid 2D here not just to compete for the part score, but because there is still a chance that We have somwhere to go: (1C)-1S-(1N)-pa;pa-2D-pa-2S;-pa-?? The hand likely to have any A's or any finessable cards is in front of me. IMNSHO making a Game Try with the given hand is completely justified. ...and if you think you shuld be in Game opposite 1 good card (or less) and a fit, then making a "Highly encouraging" bid like 2D here does not cut it. You must describe your hand in such a way as to be Forcing.

Pass. S's are likely 4:2 or 4:1, you have a likely trump trick, your values are in your short suits, your fit with pard is modest given the auction, and We have at most ~22 HCP given the auction. Also, bear in mind that it is easier for Forcing Club pairs than for "natural" pairs to decide when to throw the Red Card on the table in this auction. The time to really get in a Forcing Club pair's auction is when They open 1C or 1D, not when They open 1M or in NT. Both common sense and the "LTT" (in quotes because it is -not- a law) say our best chance for a good score is to defend 2S rather than bid to the 3level.