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Play the odds. If the Weak Two is 5-10 HCP and it goes 2B-pa-pa-?? to you and you hold a flat hand with 12 HCP => 17-22 accounted for, 18-23 left, 9-11.5 expected for GOP 13 HCP => 18-23 accounted, 17-22 left, 8.5-11 expected 14 HCP => 19-24, 16-21, 8-10.5 15 HCP => 20-25, 15-20, 7.5-10 16 HCP => 21-26, 14-19, 7-9.5 17 HCP => 22-27, 13-18, 6.5-9 Expected Ranges for Us 12 HCP=> 21-23.5, average 22.25 13 HCP=> 21.5-24, average 22.75 14 HCP=> 22-24.5, average 23.25 15 HCP=> 22.5-25, average 23.75 16 HCP=> 23-25.5, average 24.25 17 HCP=> 23.5-26, average 24.75 2N or 3ofasuit needs ~23 HCP to be odds on; and 2N is an Invite to Game. which requires ~24-25 HCP to be odds on after a Preempt by the Opponents. Therefore, Flat hands of 14- HCP should always pass in the balancing seat vs a 5-10 HCP preempt. Flat hands of 16+ HCP should always bid in the balancing seat vs a 5-10 HCP preempt. Flat hands of 15 HCP are "betwixt and between" vs a 5-10 HCP preempt, and should be examined very closely in the context of the auction, vulnerability, and Conditions of Contest, before deciding whether to pass or not. It's all in the reasonably simple math if you do it. B)

:) I note that "Frelling" is a curse word in many Sci Fi and Fantasy books/movies/etc... <_< "Frelling Two!" now seems strangely accurate and appropriate... :unsure: :unsure:

!!! I'm all in favor of forbidding systemic psyches or controlled psyches of any type, explicit or implicit. That is cheating, and cheating should always be illegal. OTOH, forbidding =all= voluntary psyches is Wrong. Psyches and the right to psyche are part of every player's right to decide how to bid their hand. You have a right to "take a flyer" any time you want to and that right should be protected. *grumble grumble grrr* I wonder how many players we need and how we go about changing such bad regulations that are not in the spirit of Bridge.

Given that opener will have to pass balanced 14/15 counts, I disagree. 1= In basic SA, here Opener is unlikely to have a balanced medium hand because that is usually opened 1N. Yes, that usually includes 5M332 15-17 HCP hands without a M suit good enough to be rebid. 2= p90-93 of _The C Series_, Responder bids 1N: Audrey actually calls Responder's 1N bid "invitational" as in "you are invited but not forced to bid again" rather than "Invitational to Game". The text and examples makes it clear that the only hands passing after 1M-1N are 12-13 HCP 5M332's and 45?? hands not strong enough to Reverse. Every other hand bids, including the potentially problematic 14 HCP 5M332 or 45?? hand (which rebids 2H systemically). The theory evidently is that since Responder has 6-10 or a bad 11, you will land on your feet the majority of the time. I'm not saying SA is perfect. Far from it. But it is nowhere near as flawed as many seem to believe.

...and not just Audrey. From the Audrey Grant ACBL C series: p101 Opener's Rebid After Responder Bids a New Suit: "With 13-16 points (minimum hand): (That's ~12-14 HCP + distribution -foo) *Raise GOP's Major to the cheapest available level with 4 card support (we also teach to raise w/ 3 card support when Responder's bid promises 5 -foo). *Bid a 2nd suit of four cards or longer if it can be bid at the one level. A lower ranking suit than the original one can be bid at the two level. *Bid NT at the cheapest level. *Rebid the original suit at the cheapest level." Edwin Kantar's _Bridge for Dummy's_: p193 Rebidding 2N after a 2/1 response shows a minimum, and Reverses require 15+ HCP From Bill Root's _Commonsense Bidding_: p51 After A 2/1 Response: Says the same as the 2 above. Significantly, this book, which is older than the other two, makes explicit mention of the possibility of a nonforcing rebid of 2N or a 2 level rebid of their original suit or a simple raise of responder's suit. He then goes on to say "The modern trend is to play any rebid by opener below game as forcing, and this is the way a vast majority of experts play; this method is described in this book." TBF, what to do with any specific hand in any specific auction is of course not covered in detail in novice books. The principles, guidelines, rules, etc are laid out. How to best and most intelligently apply them in any given situation is the province of the instructor. Dynamic evaluation and re-evaluation of hands of less than traditionally opening or GF strength is usually only introduced in the most introductory novice books. Later books in the C series, other more advanced novice books, and decent instructors cover the topic in increasing levels of detail as students progress.

The real point I'm trying to make is that HCP are not the be all and end all of hand evaluation. Playing SA, almost all 4333 12 HCP hands should not Open. Playing SA, some 4432 12 HCP hands should not Open. OTOH, many shapely hands with 2+ Quick Tricks, 6- losers, and an easy rebid are legitimate SA Opening bids despite not having 12+ HCP. Playing SA, if Responder has a fit or exceptional fit for Opener, many hands become Invitational or GF even though they are minimums if we evaluate them only based on HCP. OTOH, if Responder is in a misfit auction, many hands that would be considered invitational based strictly on HCP become minimums. This is particularly true of minor suit oriented Responding hands after a 1M Opening. **************************************************************** HCP are a loose guide at best. They work reasonably well for flat hands, although even there some judgement is needed. HCP do not work well by themselves as a measure of playing strength in shapely hands. **************************************************************** As for the 1M-3N confusion: If you are not playing 1M-2N! as a conventional raise of Opener's major, then in SA the sequences 1M-2N and 1m-2N both show a minimum opening bid in Responder's hand. Most pairs adopt 1M-2N! as a conventional M suit raise very quickly. At which point 1M-3N defaults to showing the hand originally shown by 1M-2N. Sorry for whatever confusion I caused by not making this explcit in my earlier post.

KS was the system I first learned as a Novice and a variation of it is still my favorite system. The EK Interchange / Inversion as I learned it was 1H-1S= denies 5+S or even a "chunky" 4 card suit that would be willing to play a Moyesian. (As originally written, 1H-1S also allowed for systemic psyches by either Opener or Responder; and yes there were psychic controls built into KS to handle it. Very illegal nowadays.) 1H-1N= promises a playable S suit. Within KS, there were a few motivations for EKI: a= The controlled psyche of 1S was very effective. Remember that in KS 1H-2S was a Strong Jump Shift, so the only way to show the hand we call a Weak Jump Shift was via the 1H-1S;foo-2S as a Controlled Psyche. WKI allowed Opener to also psyche by opening miserable hands w/ long S's 1H and passing the expected 1S response. Point 1: EKI loses a lot of its effectiveness w/o the Controlled Psyche built into it. Point 2: If you are going to play EKI, you have to be very careful not to psyche with it often enough that you get accused of having a systemic psyche available to you. b= 5H332 12-14 HCP hands, especially 12-13 HCP ones, were often opened 1N= 12-14. Most auctions after 1H-1S promised extras (14+ HCP and/or more shapely hands) by Opener in KS. This meant there was a very real danger of wrong siding NT contracts since the partnership's Strong NT hand would end up Dummy far more frequently than if playing Strong NTs. Point 3: EKI is most effective if you play a system that often opens Strong NT hands something other than 1N. If you play Strong NT's, and especially if you routinely open 5M332 Strong NT hands 1N (or 1C-foo;1N), then EKI loses a lot of its effectiveness. EK removed EKI from later versions of KS even though KS was a 1N= 12-14 system. IME, the best way to play EKI is as originally written: 1H-1S is forcing and denies a playable S suit 1H-1N is forcing and promises a playable S suit.

When we are done, this thread should be pinned as a primer on SA and bidding judgement within a SA context. B) regarding x.Axxxx.Kx.Kxxxx as Responder, 1= Marty Bergen and the rest of the Rule of 20 cohort would open this without worry. 2= This hand has 2 defensive tricks, 6 losers, and controls more akin to a 13+ count rather than 10 count. In sum, you 2/1 with this because it basically is an Opening bid. regarding x.AQxxx.xx.KJxxx as Responder, Ditto. Despite only having 3 controls you have 2+ defensive tricks, 6 losers, etc regarding Qx.xxxx.AJx.AJxx Ugh and Ick. 9 losers, possibly wasted SQ, no good 2/1 or good rebid. Playing 1N= 15-17, I =pass= rather than open this sometimes. Playing 1N= 12-14, I get this jreck off my chest ASAP with a 1N opening. This is not a good 2/1. Thankfully the SA bid with this hand after 1S is 3N (and this case we pray) I =never= said "1M-1N shows 6-11 HCP any distribution" in SA. I said "1M-1N shows a minimum and the definition of minimum is context dependent on the auction". Your quoted phrase is the definition of 1N Semi-Forcing. When you play SA as written, you are expected to use judgement more often than when you play many of the more "high octane" systems like 2/1 GF. SA is far from perfect. OTOH, No bidding system is perfect. But SA as documented is far better than many credit.

LOL! You have an Opening hand that can handle the auction no matter what Opener does so: 1S-2H;2S-3C GF 1S-2H;2N-3N 1S-2H;3H-4H 1S-2H;etc all show 15+ in Opener's hand so there is really no problem. As I said, those adjustments are not for hands that could Open the bidding themselves. There is even valid Bridge Logic as to why. Hands traditionally worth an opening bid in SA tend to be pretty sturdy from either side of the table: 2+ defensive tricks and/or self-sufficient in some other way etc etc. Hands of less than opening strength don't have those power tricks available. The less power you have, the more fits and misfits affect the play of the hand. I was once cold for 7S in a 6-0 "fit" because my S's were AKQJTx (I had 15 of the top 13 tricks between the two hands so I was also cold for 7N... ...with a void in one hand.) Funny man B)

Agree with Luis. Proper sequence should be 1H-1S;2N-4H If you are bit more sophisticated and play NMF over Opener's 2N rebid, Responder can uncover the double fit in S+H: 1H-1S;2N-3C!;3S-etc Useful when Responder is a bit stronger and interested in exploring slam. Up until the weird 3N rebid by Responder, this was a textbook SA auction.

The implied ambiguity in the SA novice texts with regards to invitational hands is dealt with by dynamic evaluation of Responder's hand during the auction: Axxx.x.Kxxxx.xxx , 1S-?? We all know this is a Limit Raise despite only having 7 HCP: 10-11 Dummy points= 7 HCP + 3 shortness points + 1 length point. x.Kx.AJxxx.Kxxxx , 1S-?? If a known 9 card fit improves a hands playing strength, a known misfit must just as surely damage it. Given the auction so far, this is not an invitational hand, and a 1N response is perfectly reasonable. Playing SA, what kinds of hand will Opener have that pass a SA 1N response? a) By far the most likely is 12-13 HCP 5M332's b ) With a shapely hand with a side 4+ card holding in a lower ranking suit, Opener will almost always take a bid unless they are holding an 11 count that they decided to Open. c) When the auction is 1H-1N and Opener has 45(31) or =4522 not strong enough to reverse, Opener is going to be forced to pass with a larger set of hands than in other circumstances. This means that in SA when the auction starts 1H, Responder must be careful to not bid 1N with some of the same 11 HCP hands they would be willing to after a 1S opening. Since the sequences 1H-2m;2H-2N and 1H-2m;2S-2N occur with reasonable frequency here, you usually land on your feet. Sometimes you will end up in a light 3N, but it is actually relatively rare. Section c here is of course one of the reasons why Flannery was invented. Following these guidelines, pairs will almost always get to a reasonable, and usually the proper, strain and level for their combined hands in uncontested auctions.

Let's be very clear here: We are talking about Standard American (the basis for SAYC), not 2/1 GF. This is probably the most common agreement when playing 2/1 GF. But without 2/1 GF, just a standard system, there is considerably more variation. Check out the bridge encyclopedia for discussion. Some people play the 2N rebid NF, which obviously rules out the split range treatment. And if the 2N rebid is forcing, then doing it with the 12-13 counts is problematic. There are plenty of people for whom 2N shows extras and is GF in the context of SA. Whether you allow 15-17 bal hands to open 1M would also figure into your methods here. Playing SA, Opener's rebid of 2N after Responder's 2/1 CAN NEVER EVER BE PASSED. A SA 2/1 is a promise "written in heart's blood" that Responder will take a 2nd bid. No matter what Opener rebids. The defined SA range for Opener's 2N rebid after Responder's 2/1 is a minimum (~12-14 HCP or ~13-15 if counting distro) or a maximum (18-19 HCP or ~19-21 if counting distro). The defined SA range for Opener's 3N rebid after Responder's 2/1 is a medium hand (15-17 HCP or ~16-18 if counting distro) All of is straight out of the ACBL's Club Series and other such elementary teaching texts. This is only true if you are willing to raise responder's hands and make reverses & high reverses on minimum hands. Say Qxxxx Qx AKJxx x. 1S-2H;?? Again, straight from the novice books on Standard American: A new suit at the Three Level after a 2/1 requires Opener to have a medium+ strength hand. ~15+ HCP or ~16+ if including distribution. With the given example, the "book bid" is 2N. Playing Standard American, Raising Responder's minor to the Three level also requires such extras on Opener's part, but now Opener gets to count Dummy Points in making the decision as to whether they have enough extras to raise Responder's to the Three Level. I (and the books on SA) agree with your general sentiment. I disagree about some of your exact sequences. Supposedly 1N is limited to 6-10, there are a lot of 11 counts out there that are going to start with a 2/1 not playing 1NTF. Combine that with openings based on shapely 11 counts, and using the 2NTF rebid, that equals a lot of 22-23 pt games. The sequence 1foo-1N shows a =minimum= in Standard American. A "minimum" is to some extent context dependent. Clearly, if Responder has a Opening Bid, then they do not have a minimum. Opener is supposed to pass 1N if and only if they have a minimum in terms of both shape and values or if they can not afford to make any of the bids that would show their shape. In Practice, the hands Opener bids or passes with end up looking very similar to what Opener does when a pair is playing 1N Semi-forcing. In addition, I believe it was Stephen in another forum who made a notable comment about "If We have auctions that =Up= grade our hands, then there must also be auctions that =Down= grade our hands or our initial evaluation for our hand was not good enough in the first place." Hands that would not Open the bidding, even maximum passes, should be downgraded when lacking support for partner nor having a rebiddable suit nor they have no safe sequence for them. Then you are going to miss a lot of decent 14 opposite 11, 15 opposite 11 games this way, after 1M-1nt-all pass. How about all the 11 pt hands with doubleton support for the major? I see novices making this mistake with 11 HCP 5D+5C hands after a 1M opening all the time. It is a common novice mistake to think that all shapely hands have greater trick taking potential than their HCP value suggests. The reality of course if that shape is only good in the presence of fits. Misfits destroy the potential of hands just as much as fits enhance their potential. If it goes 1S-1N with a 11 HCP (12)55, or 1(345) hand, and Opener passes with a minimum in terms of both shape and values, the odds of you missing a good game are minimal. As I said, this is all Standard American as taught to novices.

Board 1, the T/O Double Hand: ♠AKT8♥6♦KT843♣Q76 (P) - P - (1♥) - X (2♥) - 2♠ - (3♥) - P!? Overcaller has extras on this auction w/ 15 Support Points opposite what is likely to be 10 playing points (after all, Advancer made a Free Bid) and should compete with 3S (or bid 4D or possibly cue bid 4H if a die hard LTC fan). Passing put impossible pressure on Advancer. Who, not surprisingly, got it wrong.

Yes, I'm looking for a line that picks up all 2722, 2731 and 2821 (and 2812 while we're at it). I was debating this two rounds of trumps, diamond to the queen line earlier and thought it didn't work. But I might have been wrong - it didn't occur to me at the time to play more diamonds without playing the third trump. I'll buy that LHO probably won't insert the SK from Kxx on the second round. My other thought is more of a defensive one. If you were looking at this 4H opener with a singleton club, wouldn't 100% of defenders switch to their singleton at trick 2? It looks wildly unlikely to cost (the actual layout must be about the only one when it does, unless declarer is very short of entries to hand), and it's a nice easy way of beating the contract if partner has the minor suit aces - hardly impossible on the auction. So I wonder if all of this debate is a waste of time, and it's "obvious" that clubs are 3-2 all along. But the thinking is good for us. Well, if for some reason you have a strong reason to suspect RHO Lied and only has 7 H's... You know S's are Kxx:xx so the reasonable possibilities are: =3343 : =2722 =3334 : =2731 =3352 : =2713 =3325 : =2740 (some would argue this is not reasonable) =3361 : =2704 (some would argue this is even more not reasonable) =3244 : =2821 =3253 : =2812 Of the 5 "reasonable" cases, 3/5 of them have C's breaking 3-2 Now the best percentage is to to play the first 5 tricks as previously posted, Then play CK, a) if RHO did not drop a C honor play CQ, then CA, Cx in such a way as to end in your hand. b ) else if RHO did drop a C honor, you play Cx -> CA hoping for Hxxx:H or xxx:JT or some more prosaic 3-2 (RHO was messing with your head) then either cash out (C's 3-2) ending in hand or take the marked hook ending up in Dummy (hxxx:h). Assuming C's were 3-2 or hxxx:h, you now only need 1 D trick. Even if we ignore the bidding, in all of these cases, LHO is more likely to have the DA. So you put a D honor on the table... If you want to cater to both 3-2 C's and C's 4:1, you are going to have to give up on on picking up C's JTxx:x

He'll be very upset when he covers and it wins and he started with JTx club. I don't think you can base your line on just one shape for RHO. I don't think it is very useful The snide personal comment was neither deserved nor necessary. My given line does not assume "just one shape for RHO". Assuming the rest of count on the hand is correct (and it very likely is) If C's are 3:2, then D's are 5:1 (opponents are =3253 : =2812) and LHO is even more likely to hold the DA. The line I gave is my attempt to maximize the chances that you get (4 C's + 1 D) or (3 C's + 2 D's) in order to get 10 tricks given Our hands and the information we have. There may be a higher percentage line than the one I presented. Present one and Prove it!

pa-(4H)-pa-pa; X-pa-4S-allpass. ♠A93♥42♦K763♣KQ94 ♠QJT72♥K♦Q82♣A873 H5, 2, A*, K 3, 4, HQ, r* x, 3, x, SQ* x, 9*, x, Sx K, SA*, H discard?, T leaving ♠-♥-♦K763♣KQ94 ♠J♥-♦Q82♣A873 We have 8 guaranteed tricks and either need to get 2 D's or 1C + 1D in addition to get to 10 tricks. RHO evidently has AQJTxxxx for their 2nd seat Red 4H opening. Since Dummy has the H2, and the H5 then H3 from LHO is consistent with LHO starting with H53 tight, I see no reason to doubt RHO's H Length. S's were Kxx:xx Evidently LHO is 32?? and RHO is 28?? LHO =3244 and RHO =2821 is the most likely layout. The "customary" range for a 4M opening is 3-8 HCP, which means RHO should not usually have the DA. In addition, LHO has more Vacant Spaces to hold the DA than RHO does. Both pieces of evidence suggest that LHO has the DA. So... C4 -> CA If RHO drops the CJ or CT or shows they started with a C void (makng opponents =3235 : =2830), you should be home free. Assuming none of that happens, you are playing C's to be JTxx:x C7 -> toward the board. LHO does not necessarily know where the C8 is. Does LHO cover? If Yes, duck it. Now all of LHO's options are bad ones. Else No, run the C7 Hope this is useful.

Playing Standard, 1H-(1S)-1N shows ~8-9 HCP Responder w/ S's stopped. we have 17 HCP and a 6 H's. We therefore belong in 3N or 4H. Make whatever bid(s) will get Us there. 3S! is a nice but potentially too sophisticated choice. A good Responder will think along these lines after 1H-(1S)-1N-pa;3S! "OK, that was a GF cue bid. GOP already heard me say I have S's stopped, so why is he asking me if S's are stopped? Because he needs a way to tell me he has 6th H in a GF hand." 2S! should also work: ...2S!-pa-2H...4H or ...2S!-pa-foo..2H => GF hand w/ 6+H The upside is 2S! is less likely to be misunderstood. The downside is an extra round of bidding often tells the opponents how to defend more accurately. Given your soft H's and stoppers in the short suits, 3N may play better then 4H even if We do have a 62 H fit, so just bidding 3N is not irrational either. If GOP has hidden 3card support, they should routinely bid 4H.

Nicely done in the TR style :rolleyes: 1= Pass. Both "The Law" and common sense say GOP heard the auction as well as you did and he did not have extras for the auction so far and neither do you. 2= Depends on what you and GOP have agreed are appropriate hands for a Reverse. a) If a Reverse promises 5- losers and 17+ HCP or a maximum, you should have 5 level safety and can afford to cue bid the SA with 4S. This is much better than 1430 because it tells GOP to worry about minor suit holes. b ) If a Reverse can be just about any shapely 16+ count, you must pass. (FTR, I will play style a and only style a exactly because of this kind of deal) 3= The Standard auction 1M-2m;2N shows a minimum or a maximum that will take a bid opposite GOP's sign off. You've got the rare 2nd hand type. 1S-2C;2N-3N;4C showing this hand type and the CA is probably best. 4= Some might argue the "Terence Reese lead" here is the CQ... Others who use logic a bit more realize that this is =not= the same situation as that when TR made his (in)famous lead. For one thing; We are defending a partscore, not a game, and should consider being more passive on Opening Lead. GOP did not support H's, so there is at least a decent chance that he is short in that suit. The appropriate H honor is the partnership lead. 5= Win the SA, Dump a Hx under the DA, ruff a D, Dump a Hx under the SK, Now you can pursue high cross ruff lines knowing that you can only lose 2 H's no matter what. Ruff a S (happens to be a high ruff), ruff a Dx, then start ruffing high. If you can score 9 C's + SA + SK + DA you will come to 12 tricks. If DK drops you have potential additional vig for 12 tricks of pulling trumps and throwing another H under the DQ.

.I think the opposite is true, and is the main reason I don't like 2N as the catchall. If opener has JTxxx.AKx.xxx.KQ, if 2M guarantees a good suit, isn't one forced to rebid 2N over 2C? Doesn't this wrongside the diamond stopper if any? Even though playing 2M as the catchall leaves you unable to distinguish Jxxxx suits from AKQxxx suits, this is not fatal IMO. You can still probe for the 6-2 major fit at the 3 level. When one bids 2N with or without stoppers, it is permanently wrongsided, and partner won't often probe to see if you really have all the stops, and you get to 3N with a suit wide open. In SAYC if you adopt this style you get the same effects plus reach a bunch of 22 point games. Stephen makes some decent points. Nothing is perfect and sometimes we have to choose between evils. However, 1= If you take a look at a Standard reference like Truscott's Bidding Dictionary or Root's Common Sense Bidding, you'll see that Opener's 2N rebid is defined as showing a minimum (12-14 HCP or 13-15 HCP + distribution) or 18-19. 2= Both sources will also say that 1M-2foo;2M also shows a minimum and tends to emphasize the suit more than 2N would. 3= Most of the time when Opener does not have a good suit nor a 2nd suit nor support for the 2/1 suit, they will have a hand suitable for a 2N rebid given the auction. 4= Stephen and others are absolutely wrong about getting to 22 HCP games regularly unless they are playing SA incorrectly. Systemically, Responding hands w/o support for Opener's suit have to be nigh onto GF to make a 2/1 playing SA. The vast majority of 11 HCP 54's and 55's with a singleton in Opener's suit are not good enough to make 2/1's playing Standard! Figure such hands are only worth ~8-9 playing points unless some good news comes to light later in the auction. Similar but less severe adjustments should be made to 10 HCP hands with a doubleton in Opener's presumed 5card Major. Similar and =more= severe adjustments should be made by Responder when void in Opener's suit. Except under special circumstances; 26+ HCP w/o a fit, or 25+ HCP w/ a fit, or 24 HCP split exactly 12+12 are required to be in a "good" game. ...and then we get to the rare hand like Stephen's where you have to choose between evils: JTxxx.AKx.xxx.KQ 1f 1S-2H;-?? We all raise to 2H's and there is no problem. If 1S-2D;-?? I have =no= problem rebidding 2N here. If GOP is w/o S support and has GF values, 3N rates to play about equally as well from either side. If 1S-2C;-?? =Now= Stephen's point is very evident. It should be noted that on most hands it still will not make any difference who Declares 3N if that is the game we end up in, but it will make a difference on some. This a good example of where partnerships should agree on which evil They find more acceptable. Here a decent rule is "tell the smallest lie". JTxxx is more of a feature of the hand than xxx, so I'd grit my teeth and rebid 2S in tempo. If the S's were xxxxx and the D's JTx, I'd rebid 2N. No system can replace judgement. A good system can only aid judgement. And all systems have problem hands. There is no perfect system that handles every hand well.

Excellent post mikeh. 4N from me as well.

What "massive hole" was Fred talking about with relation to Weak NTs?

Hi Dwayne! :huh: I completely understand the fear of 2N-3D+;3H-3N or 2N-2D+;4H! and perhaps missing a slam. However, Responder knows that the average 20-21 HCP balanced hand will have ~7 1/3 (20 HCP) or 7.5 (21 HCP) controls. Usually 10+ controls are needed to be in a slam. Any Responding hand with 3+ controls or 2+ controls and significant values and/or shape for the auction should not let the auction die in just Game. I also agree with jdonn's comments that Opener should do =something= strong sounding and that should "wake up" Responder.

Playing it this way leads to some 3NT on 23-24 hcps. Ok, so you have 1 or 2 long suits so 3NT should have some play. But do you always want to be in it? French standard solves this by rebidding 2M with 12-14, and pass responder's 2NT (11-12) with 12 or a bad 13. (By the way, 1M-2x-2/3NT is 15-17/18-19.) Not saying SAYC is inferior to french standard, but it seems to me french standard has this particular situation better dealt with. YMMV. I personally have seen problems when a 2M rebid can have anything from xxxxx to AKQJxx for a suit in a minimum hand. As you correctly point out, every bidding agreement has a cost. The question is always is the cost worth it. Being able to tell the difference between a minimum w/ a rebiddable suit and a minimum w/o a rebiddable suit seems to help more often than We end up getting in a light 3N; and most of the rare occasions we end up in those light 3N's, they are cold or at least have decent play. Benefit seems to outweigh the cost.

Yep. But if the Opening Leader has even a stiff "x", you want a S lead, and they are never going to make that lead unless you tell them about it. So you ask for it. This also means that if that lead or a self-sufficient lead does not hit the table, W has a big head start in counting the hand for the defense. Either way, E has a big head start in counting the hand for the defense.