benlessard

I got 3 solutions 1- open 1D 11-21. You lose some psych opportunity, the non-forcing jump shift, and 1D-4M with a wide range. You will also need to make some light courtesy raises (1D-1M-2C-3C). Small cost compared to the trouble of strong D hands in 1C. 2- this one is weird but 1D is unbalanced with clubs or 4-5 both minors unbalanced, 1C now include some D hands instead of the club hands. The idea is that 1C-1Y-2C as artificial or D is significantly better than 2C as artificial or clubs. Of course a 1D opening that is NF but show 5C is not for everybody. Add the switch 1D-1H-?? 1S both minors (may have 3H) 1NT 4S (may have 3H) 2C only clubs 1D-1S-?? 1NT-both minors 2C clubs or clubs +4H and you have 2C free for something else. I think my firend play that 2C is 6D so that when hes got D hands under 1C its always a 2 suiter. 3rd one is a bit complicated but 1NT = 12-14 and 1C is 15+bal, 15+ with clubs and 18+ any.

I made a mistake if ask want to know for a !C control he simply need to bid 4D. If he want to know for a D control he bid 4C. For a H he bid 4C 4C-4D-4H So if you have control everywhere you can still make a fake ask and cover all the suits.

"Change the controls held by each player slightly and the positions are reversed" So so wrong, this simply meant you didnt look at the table. If you dont bother to simply look at it this discussion is pointless. I didnt cherry pick anything, ive done all the possible combo of cuebid possible except those where one side got all the cuebid where you can do almost anything (fake ask weither they are denial or not). "Serious means that we are willing to go to the 5 level if we hold all the controls." Suit yourself & play 5, but on some of the same hand ill play 4. If you cant see that having some extras last train sequence at zero cost is an advantage there is not a lot else i can bring to this discussion. If I have a serious hand that will want to take control at some point, the DCBs can be turned into Asking Bids." This is only true when asker got control in all the suit and need to check if partner also got a club control without caring too much about controls in the other suits, thats imo cherry picking. It help when you enumerate sequence side by side so if you have one example where denial make a gain over std just show it.

Lets take for example the case where the 1st players got a C+D cue and the 2nd got D+H using denial it will go 4H-4NT the 2nd player need to bypass 4S even when minimum. using std it could go 4C-4D-4H-4S (C cue,D cue,i need a H ctrl and extras, i got the H control but im min) 1st players got a C cue and the 2nd got D+H 4D--4NT the 2nd player need to bypass 4S even when minimum. in std 4C-4D-4H-4S (C cue,D cue,i need a H ctrl and extras, i got the H control but im min) What this simply show is that the sequence 4C-4D is more useful when its i got a C cue & i got a D cue than its counter part in denial methods.

If you look at the table on my google drive you see that case where you are missing a side control lead obviously to the same 4S however the lead directing information is different. However if you look at the case where all the side suit are covered they are covered earlier with the show method. This allow for a better turbo method. if im in 4C/4D and i know we have all the controls it allow me to bid 4NT directly or to temporize (fake cuebid) with 4red and bid 4NT over the expected 4S. This add some bidding space. In short 4m-4NT got more value than 4H-4NT. I play 3NT frivolous, so obviously for me 3NT-4S is to play, but on the long run there is no difference between... 3NT (ser)----4C and 4C(ser) at this point you have extras knowned on one side and the club situation for one player its symmetrical. The drawback is of course when you cuebid and both players have minimum hand you just leak more info. so if 4C deny a club control but guarranted a red control its better to use 4D as asking for the location of the red control (or do you have both of them?) rather than 4D denying a D control. This is easy to see 4C--4D (denyC--showC& deny D) 4C--4H (denyC--showC&D but denyH) 4C--4S (both players deny club cue) vs 4C--4D (denyC, wich red cue do you have) 4C--4H (denyC, i need H and extra values, H cue only isnt enough) 4C--4S (both players deny club cue) the 2nd method got a last train sequence that the 1st one is missing. Just look at the table on the googledrive carefully. Compared the sequences written last train (2vs2) 2way and 3way.

if 3NT is non serious you would like to signoff in 4S without telling where you are weak so 4S as no control or just to signoff is natural. If 3NT is serious its unlikely your going to have controls in all the side suits or at least if you have controls in all the side suits you going to be strong enough to bid 4NT rkc anyway.

In retrospect with a denial method I think you can play 4C = no C cue may have no cue at all 4H = no H cue 4S = i need a H cue and extras But i think its simpler and more logical that 3NT--4S= no cue at all and 3NT-4C no cue in clubs but at least one red cue. Again i dont see how any of these method will be better than std show anyway.

"I disagree. You just have to have a more consistent approach." Show me what can be improved on the std way. Its mechanically quite simple, for cases where if both side got a "hole" EX both are missing the D ctl or DK (you need to signoff show is always better. For cases where even if both side are missing the DK you may still be able to go further deny is better. "Very simple and it always works." But slightly inferior. Ignore the frivolous/serious 3Nt since it nearly symmetrical in the long run. 4C (deny may have zero side cue)---?? ----4D = deny D control confirm C control ----4H = confirm C+D need H ----4S = to play (we both dont havea club ctrl) 4C--4D--?? (denyC,show C&deny D) --------4S No D control --------4H D control but no H control --------4NT control in both red 4C--4H--4S= no H control (4H is show C+D ask for H) 4C--4H--4NT = H control However if you use 4C(deny but at least one control) You can get 4D asking for one or both red ctrl 4H asking for H ctrl and extras (last train) In short playing denial whats the best use of 3NT---4S Do you play 4S as having no ctrls or 4S as having a C+D+H control but not wanting to ask for keycards (lol)? I guess its possible to play 4S as no controls and dead minimum and to play 4C as sometimes no ctrl but no dead minimum. I think its clear that the last train cases where you need a H control and extras is worth more. Anyway its irrelevant since the show method give you more bidding sequences than either denial method.

Assuming ♠ is trumps and you either bypass 3NT or someone just bid 3NT to show a serious hand. Your first cuebid option is 4C. If you are doing italian cuebids (first or 2nd round controls) a show approach work better. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u0mypytSItWvlE56uIXCMafhjMCeoyAkFHiIqt9cvCs/edit?usp=sharing My link didnt handle the editing that was done previously. C+H on the X axis mean the first player to bid over 3NT got the ♣&♥C ctrls. CDS mean 4C,4D,4S CHN mean 4C,4H,4NT If we look at the case where the first player got a D control and the 2nd got ctrl in C+H using standard method it would go 4D--?? (4D show a D cue but no C cue) and right now we could ask for aces or we could bid 4H (implying a C but sk for H ctrl) and bid 4NT later. This is what i call a 2way. using denial it would go. 4C (deny C ctrl but at least one ctrl in the red, with no ctrol in the side suit you just bid 4S) now 4D ask for where is the side control. 4H= no H ctrl so D ctrl 4S= H ctrl but no D ctrl 4NT+= ctrl in both reds However you see that the denial method lose the 2way option. If we look at the case where the first player got a H ctrl and 2nd got a C+D ctrl and enough value to rkc if you have all the ctrl. In std it will go 4H-4NT in denial it will go 4C-4D-4S-4NT (no C cue but at least a red cue, where is it, its in H, im good) but in denial you also have a last train option, 4C--4H (no C cue but at least a red cue, i need a H cue and extras) When you compare everything in the chart except disclosure consideration you see that a show method is better than a denial method. However if you do the same chart for Kings ask you will see that a denial method is slightly better than a show method. http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/specific-kings-vs-denial-method-vs-spiral-scan-part-one/ ♠ is still trump and 5NT= show all the keycards +♠Q in a show method 6NT all the side kings 6S= no side kings 6H= ♥K only 6D= ♦K may or may not have the ♥K 6C= ♣K may or may not have another king in a denial method 6NT=3K 6S=0K 6H= ♣K &♦K 6D= ♣K may or may not have ♥K (deny K♦) 6C= deny K♣ but show one or 2 red king. if we compare we see that 6NT,6S,6H,6D are equivalent in term of information and continuations. However if we look at 6C standard method K show,k ask..............................................denial 6C-6D = do you have ♦K...................................................wich red K do you have 6C-6D-6S = only ♣K .........................................................only ♥K 6C-6D-6H = ♣K+♥K, no ♦K................................................deny ♥K so by inference only ♦K 6C-6D-6NT = ♣K+♦K ..............................................................both red K 6C-6S = I needed the 3K.....................................................I needed the ♣K for 7S 6C-6H = do you have ♥K ?.....................................................free for something like.. either red K is fine but i need some extras also. So denial gain one sequence. My idea is to combine the 2 using a turbo method. When you are in a 2way situation bidding 4NT or higher directly= even number of keycards temporizing = odds number in both cases you do the Q of trumps and K in denials at the 5 level. 1S-2D 2H-3H (no void) 3S-4C (2 top 3 in S, C cue serious) 4D-?? (D cue) now... 4H= no H cue but want to rkc 4S= opener need extras and H cue to keep bidding 4NT= even number of keycards no Q of trumps 5C = even number of keycard Q of trumps, no 2nd round in C 5D = even number of keycards, Q of trumps, 2nd round in C but not in D 5H = even number of keycards, ♠Q,2nd round in minors, not in H. 5S = even number of keycards, Q♠ 2nd round in every side suit (or none at all) Now if responder got an odd number of keycards he just fake a H ask. 1S-2D 2H-3H (no void) 3S-4C (2 top 3 in S, C cue serious) 4D-4H (D cue, i need H ctrl) 4S-?? (no, 4NT= odd number of keycards no Q of trumps 5C = odd number of keycard Q of trumps, no 2nd round in C 5D = odd number of keycards, Q of trumps, 2nd round in C but not in D 5H = odd number of keycards, ♠Q,2nd round in minors, not in H. 5S = odd number of keycards, Q♠ 2nd round in every side suit (or none at all) Ive tested this on a couple of hands it look nice. xx Txxx Kxx AKJx AQJx AKQx AJxx x 1D---1H 3S---4C (exactly singleton in one of the black since 4C and 4D would be voids, no cue in S but cue in clubs) ?? now.. 4D= i have S covered but i need a D ctrl (or i got an odd number of keycards) 4H= no S ctrl 4S = even number of keycards noQ of trumps 4NT = even+Q♥ no 2nd round in ♠ 5C = even+Q+2nd round♠ no 2nd round in C 5D = even+Q+2nd round in black no 2nd round of ♦ 5H = even+Q 2nd round everywhere. With an odd number of keycards opener would temporize with 4D. 4D-4H ?? 4S = odd number of keycards noQ of trumps 4NT = odd+Q♥ no 2nd round in ♠ 5C = odd+Q+2nd round♠ no 2nd round in C 5D = odd+Q+2nd round in black no 2nd round of ♦ 5H = odd+Q 2nd round everywhere. obviously if you temporize and partner ask for keycards you reply normally. Note that any player can directly show his even keycards as long as he cannot have a void in his hand. Yuo also need to be able to temporize (2way,3way) if S is trump and your at 4H, 4NT is regular rkc. Its only when your making a "jump" to 4NT that it show even keycards.

Pretty good example for why for the last 7 or 8 years all my splinters are void. Splinter that can be void or singleton are just too costly. If 4C is exactly singleton 4D is obvious. If 4C is void 4H is obvious. If 4C is either, 4D is clearly the % bid in a weak NT setup but close in a strong NT setup. Expect a fair amount of 5 level going down when opener got a void and move over 4D.

If the hand is good enough ot make 5m you should explore. If 5m is unlikely just blast. We are never bal when we open 1M so our 1NT is often 5332, we do use 3D as puppet but i seldom remember ending up in 4M where it was a lot better than 3NT, so I dont think its necessary, 5-3 when responder doenst have a singleton and opener is 5332 is overated.

"It is in mine and normal methods - the range 12-14. I see no downsides." This is because your 1D show pts :) if 1D can be 0 pts you want 2H to be around 18-20. But even playing normal methods its better to play 2H as a narrow range and 3H as almost forcing. 12-13 bal = 1H, 14 bal or unbal min = 2H, 15+ unbal or 18-19 bal =3H one of the quickest way i know to lose imps is to jump to 4H with a 18-19 bal. I also play 2pts ranges. 1C-1D=1NT = 17-18 not 4H. 1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT = 15-16. (here 1S show at least 6 pts)

Im used to the strong use of SP for leads after a lightner, so I would be afraid partner underlead HA after ruffing. With a S void and seeing the J!S (or K!S if you play rusinow) on dummy i would automatically think the Q!S show A/K or Hvoid. Very interesting hand

In imps it look clear to maximize our chances to get a plus. No reasons to think 6D is going to be an advance sac 5 times more often than with an intend to make.

If 1C got wide range of balanced hand I strongly believe that 1M as 3 or 4 is the way to go. With a min hand and 4 trumps support jumping to 2M is more preemptive but its pointless and costly in constructive auction. IMO its much much better to use the jump raise to 2M as a specific range.

You can even have 3 ranges if your willing that 1D doesnt always promise 4H, you will sometimes play 1H in a 43 fit with a 4-4 !S fit on the side (rarely cost IRL). Also 1C-1D-1S can be 3 cards if 3244,3235. EX 1C-1D-1H= range 1&3 1C-1D-1NT range 2 1C-1D-2H = range 3 with 4 card support 1C-1D-1H-1S = do you have range 1 or 3 ? 1C-1D-1H-1NT= I dont have H i have !S and pts to GF vs range 3. Note that responder with a certain range bid 1D even if he doesnt have 4H. Basically you can play 1NT= 12-14 and 1C 15-20 bal or clubs and you will never play 2NT with less than 24 pts.

I think going up with ♥K is better. Also better is to cash 2 clubs and exit ♥ you may alwyas fallback on east having the ♦A but if west got the ♦A and 2 clubs you get to make it with a 3-3 ♠break. or a ♠Qx

Did that many west cover the J ? It look like a major fishing expedition to me. I would always lead the Q/J from QJ87 unless i suspect/know that one opps got 4♠. However on this hand leading low is a lot better.

BTW i assume east played low at T1. If he play high we might have 3S stopper and its a whole different ball game.

I think just unblocking the A of H and J of clubs to the K look best. ♣J facing ♣Kx shouldnt induce a cover even from Q9 but you never know. If H are 42 its more likely that its west that got 4 so i like my odd for the ♣ finesse against east.

I dont think covering matter (i would have played low from dummy) but I do think east will will duck the J!H more often than east got a stiff Q♥ so playing the J is an improvement over A and J. I dont see anything else

They play 3rd and 5th and since west would probably lead D from AK ill play east for a D card and without 5S. So imo the S are QT8x---Jxx unless they play MUD or lead 8 from 87x

The price we pay is that our 1D is like in polish clubs it always show 4D unb (but 11-21) so we must play 12-14 NT at any vul and our strong club start at 15. We need to do this since 1C-1Y-2D need to be artificial for opener 21+ hands. Since our 1D show 4 our 2C could be 5C+4M. I way prefer to play 2C can be 5 and 1D is 4+ than 1D can be 2 but its a minority view. There is also other strong hand that are not opened 1C. Our 1M opening is 11-14 or 18-20 UNB (with 15-17 or 21+ we open 1C) the spirit is the same than for min-max michaels. with 3433 responder will mostly 1S (6-8 no 4M, or GF bal act as range ask) but its true that we often play 1M or 2M in 4-3 fit. 1C-1D-1H-1S-?? 1NT = 15-16 not always bal 2C = 15-16 5C+3/4H 2D = 6H or 5H+5S or 5H but 17-18 2H = 5S+4H 2S = 17+ with clubs and 3/4H Note that 1C-1D-1NT is 17-18 denies 4H. So when opener rebid 1H hes got 15-16 (will refuse and INV) 19-20 (will be GF over an inv but stop in 1H vs crappy) or hes got 4H 15-17 With 4H and good 18-21 we jump to 2H 1C-1D-2H if responder is crappy we have a H fit if hes semi-positive or GF bal we are in GF. Some trick to build a system... there is 3 types of unbalanced responder hands crappy, semi posi and GF. My view is that weak and GF are the one that mesh the best since opener will assume weak and responder will keep bidding with the GF hand. Also its more efficient when its responder that pass than when its opener that pass since the range of the opener is more narrow. So a system where is opener that make the non forcing bid and its responder that pass are better than the other way around.

What was the field results ? Agree 100% that 3C isnt an option. So its really the X or not that can win or lose the board imo. I dont think its reasonable to blame north either way. I know most wouldnt X 3H but I strongly believe people are too chicken when it come to doubling in that type of spot. So i guess there was a lot of 3S contract at the otehr table too.

Both X look totally normal and 3S over a pass look normal. Idk if i would have X 3H with north hand, I think its marginal. Its not like ive got a lot of experience in similar situation. Tough situation. I feel that ive got some values, a surprise in trump and a singleton to lead (im not going for the QD lead). If this is your painful deal my guess is that you had a good session.