luis

1♠ what else ? 4+ cards. Double usually denies 4 cards in spades and is used to show a forcing hand without a bid, typical hand: 3-2-4-4.

Ron, You have your bidding style in your system: "always bid a major first" so your pd will KNOW you can have a better minor when you bid 1h-1s. While your approach may or may not be closer to "standard" than mine it's not absolutely standard since by rule you MUST bid 1s due to systemic considerations, one of them pd not being able to reverse after 1h-1N with 5 hearts and 4 spades since you already denied 4. You say "1s automatic" because you are forced to bid 1s in your system, playing SAYC 2d, 1N and 1s are valid options and there's no "automatic" bid. Ben and I choose 1N, some others choose 2d and some will choose 1s. Automatic? Playing natural opener can reverse with 5 hearts and 4 spades even when he suspects pd doesn't have 4 just to describe his hand, he doesn't have any other bid.You can pretend a player learning SAYC will take 1h-1N;2s as not showing spades. So as long as opener bids naturally there's very little danger in not bidding xxxx of spades after 1h since opener will reverse if he does have a good hand with spades. Being this a beginers forum I think that "don't bid horrible suits" or "threat xxxx as a 3 card suit" is far a better rule than "always bid your majors first" which is a complete distortion of natural bidding since you are supossed to bid your longer and better suits first and then your side suits. While I can accept your "theory" as one viable option that I don't like I really don't think it's a good advice for beginners. Luis

Dear Whereagles Beginners know that I respect them and I'd never try to offend them or make them feel bad about a bid. I just wanted to point out what I think about this style of bidding. If I say something is a "criminal offense" you should know I'm using the Luis' code of laws :-). There're many books and many styles as an example I agree with Ron in about 90% of the problems posted here and I strongly disagree with him in every single problem where responder has xxxx in a major and AKxxxx in a minor :-)

The rules are very clear if there's Unauthorized Information (UI) the player that has the UI cannot take a winning action if he has an unsuccesful logical alternative. In this hand we need to determine 1) If East has UI 2) If pass was a logical alternative #2 is easy, being a passed hand after pd passed over 3♣ I think no matter what east has pass is a logical alternative. Only exception will be if East just forgot to open his hand due to distraction, so if he has 14+HCP nothing happens. #1 as Ben commented is hard to determine playing online but in the context of what happened I think that the answer is that yes, east did have UI from west's hesitation I'd rule 3♣ down 4 NS -200 removing the double. Luis

Low club.

After 1d-2c when you have 3-5-4-1 and values the recommended bid is 2NT, the 2N bid is used a lot to show "Invitational values and missfit for clubs". Overcaller can bid 3s if he has longer spades than clubs. When the opps bid again we agree that new suits by overcaller show the canape hand while dbl shows a two suiter with the first suit longer and pass shows usually a balanced one suited hand or a one suited hand that doesn't want to rebid the suit. About 11-14 that's usually the recommended range you can change it if you like light overcalls there's a balance to watch, the bigger the range the easiest it is to enter the auction and make things difficult for them but you are also damaging your competitive bidding since it will be hard to know when you can bid game or invite and when you must just shutup. Luis

Ron, You can construct 1 or 2 hands where not bidding 1♠ makes us miss a 4♠ game, but you can also construct a zillion hands where not showing the diamond suit makes you lose a cold 6♦ or 7♦ or play a silly 3NT contract where you win 5♦ or 6♦. I don't think 1♠ is automatic at all, I would never bid 1♠ holding AKJxxx of diamonds but I understand that some good players would. Not only the 1♠ bids hides the diamond suit forever but it also will make pd evaluate his hand wrongly most of the time. How do you think pd will evaluate a singleton in spades once you show a spade suit? I personally think that this can only lead to some guess by opener the only single case where the 1♠ bids is where opener does have 4 spades, opener can't reverse and yet you can make a spade game. There're auctions where in order to reach a good diamond slam you may even need to use the spade suit as an anti-splinter bid if pd shows he is short in spades, making him know that you have no wasted values there and no other honors to cuebid in the side suits.

7NT seems to be the right hand to play 7. And for the conditions you posted I don't we are going to win the tournament bidding 6N.

Free: If you want to invite you can, I thought your hands had 0 HCP :-). Remembering overcaller has 11-14 it's easy to invite and either stop safe or get to a good game.

Correct but 1♥ is not a psyche, a psyche is a "gross distortion of what is expected for a bid" North is only missing one card in hearts and thus can't be accused of making a "gross distortion" of his hand. 1♥ is normal, 1♠ is probably better but there're players who prefer to bid a xxxx suit before AKJxxx as if it were the right thing so...

I think there's nothing to discuss, not liking what they bid is not a reason to call the TD. I don't think North bid is a gross distortion of a natural 1d-1h bid and I find the rest of the bidding perfectly normal. EW are absolutely wrong in eveything they said.

2♣ is usually used to show any 22+ hand or any distributional hand with 3 or less losers. Others refer to 2♣ as any game-forcing hand. I usually describe 2♣ as "I really don't want to be passed out at 1x" :-) Some players don't like to open two suiters with 2♣ argueing that the hand is very difficult to describe because you have to show your suits starting at a higher level, it can also be added that if the two suiter doesn't have a lot of power in HCP there's very little risk of being passed out in 1x. The hand you post is too freaky to make an educated guess about what is best, some days it will work opening 1♥ some days it will be better to open 2♣, who knows? Luis

I think the correct SAYC bidding is: 2c - 2d 2h - 3d 4c - 4d 5c - pass Or if you don't open freakish two suiters 2c 1h - 1n 4c - 4d 5c - pass

Ok lets examine this example, partner bid 2sp over 1c and partner have AKQJxx. Lets say that the chances of partner having a weak two in spade when you have AKQJxx are 0.01% (just an example number) they are not 0, because partner could for example bid 2sp with a 7 card to the 10. Now if im your partner you know for 100% sure i have a honsest weak 2 in spade and although its just 0.01% chance you know this 1 in a 10000 just came. If anyone else here like for example The_Hog, you know he makes 1 psych every 1000 hands (again just an example) so chances are it is a psych. The opponents doesnt have this knowlege , and there is my point it wasnt 100% fair (although it was very close to it) Now you will say they can know because in the CC we write our psyches (never frequently etc.) but what if you and your partner have some 3-4 psyches you freqently or rarly makes but you never makes any other psyches ( i think with most good players this is the case, they have psyches the do often like the makwell pair like the 1d-1M with 2/3 cards and a weak hand). Point is you almost always know something they dont, even if its 0.0001 piece of knowlege its still a little problem. Flame: Knowing your pd's style is not unethical. If you don't bid game or 3N with 14 balanced when your pd overcalled because you know he overcalls light then as long as the opponents are entitled to that piece of information if they ask there's nothing unethical. I think you are confusing pd's style with an implicit agreement. The rules forbid a partnership from having an undisclosed agreement. The rules don't forbid you from making a decision based on your partner style and the rules don't forbid you from making a bridge-logical decision (example: deciding pd either psyched or picked the wrong card from the bidding box when you have AKQJxx of spades and he announced a weak 2 in spades) . The only thing that you have to do is give your opps the information you have about pd style if they ask.

Multi-reply: Rado: My friend, I disagree 100% with you :-), how can you be happy with your 3N bid, it's a complete gamble into the darkness. You can have QJxxx, xx, AQx,xxx and make exactly the same two bids. I wonder how happy you feel when QJxxx-xx,AQx,xxx bids the same as xxxx,x,AKJxxx,xx. What is your pd supossed to do use the magic 8 ball to determine the contract? I'm not saying that hiding spades is a clever move that you must always do what I say is that hiding AKJxxx of diamonds is terrible and if you do bid 1s to show your 4 horrible spades you are hiding AKJxxx of diamonds. Trpltrbl: 1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx 2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

The rules are not that clear to mortal players. Examples: 1) Playing online, I open 2♣ in 3rd seat nonvulnerable, my holding is (you guessed it). Everyone gets upset. We had a thread of about 1000 postings about such issues on the Dutch online bridge forum (Step). Many people say that they won't trust this to be a surprise to partner, unless proven. I say that you have to give your opponents the benefit of the doubt since it is impossible to prove that someone is not being unethical. 2) I open 1NT with a singleton, or someone else opens Muiderberg with a 6-card. Everyone gets upset. Of course, this is irrelevant since it's not a psyche, just bad bridge. However, most people don't know what the term "psyche" means, so it becomes most unclear what the 1000-posting thread is all about. 3) Partner makes a jump overcall on a three-card. I can see that on his face since he's not very good at keeping pokerface. Should I alert it? I happen to have 5 diamonds myself, and if alert it everyone knows that I have 5 diamonds and that that's the reason why I think it's a psyche. Of course, I have to bid consistently with the normal meaning of his overcall. I'm not sure if the consistent bid would be 4♦ or 5♦. 1) Rules prevent players from psyching artifical bids, so if your 2♣ is your artificial forcing bid you are not allowed to psyche it. If you didn't know that now you do, score adjusted issue terminated. What constitutes a 2♣ opening bid or not depends, if your 2♣ opening is not a gross distortion of an artificial forcing 2♣ then nothing happens. 2) If you open 1N frequently with a singleton your pd and your CC should say that "unbalanced shape" is possible. If you don't you can open 1N with a singleton if you want and nothing happens. One of my pds opened 1N once with a void and nobody complained or said a single word about it. Muirderberg with a 6 card suit I think is normal and shouldn't trigger any discussion at all. 3) Of course you can't take any action based on pd's face, bid what you would have bid over a "robot" overcall and that's it. Once I overcalled a weak 2s with a void over 1cl, my held AKQJxx of spades, he felt he couldn't pass (wrong he could) and bid 4s, making 4 after they played club ace and a club (I held 9 clubs to KQJ).

The problem is when pd has something like 1-5-3-4 or 0-5-3-5, you can be missing a diamond slam since you never bid your 6 card suit. Bidding 1s with xxxx and then 3N never showing AKJxxx of diamonds can never be the right approach no matter where they told you such a thing. You are wrong about 1s being the "Sayc bid" the SAYC bid is 1N yes, deniying the horrible xxxx of spades -good thing- over almost any rebid by pd you can bid 3♦ showing a hand without 3h, without 4♠ and with a diamond suit 6-10 HCP, which is xactly what you have. "No rule or book can prevent you from doing what is correct" (Luis)

Chamaco: I'm very happy with what we play over our very similar 1♦ opening bid: 1♥: Natural or any GF hand 1♠: Natural 4+ 1N: 6-10 2♣: 10-12 with 5+ clubs or balanced 13HCP 2♦: 10-12 with 5+ diamonds 2♥/2♠: Weakish 5-8 with 6+ cards in the suit. 2N: 11-12 Bal After 1♦-1♥ (Natural or any GF hand) 1♠: 4♠, denies 4♥ 1N: denies 4h/4s balanced hand 2♣: 9+ cards in the minors 2♦: Minimum 6+ diamonds 2♥: 4 card support, usually minimum 2♠: Three suiter, minimum, 4 card heart support 2N: Maximum with exactly 6 diamonds 3♣: Maximum 5-5 or better in the minors 3♦: 7+ diamonds and Maximum 3♥: Maximum, 4♥ and 5+♦ 3♠: Spade splinter, maximum, 4♥ 3N: Club splinter, maximum, 4♥ We continue with relays but natural bidding can be effective as well. After 1d-1h;1N we use 2c checkback, 2d transfer to 2h and 2h gf relay with 2s and 2n showing 6 clubs and diamonds with 4h respectively. After 1d-1s opener rebids are very similar. If you are interested in continuations or have questions just let me know. Luis

What system were you playing? I think the 1♠ bid is a criminal offense in any system. and sorry but 4♣ is probably even worst. Playing 2/1 bid 1N and if pd rebids 2♣ bid 2♦. (Over 3♣ 3♦ or 3N depending on your agreements about 3♦ after 1M-1N;3c) Playing Sayc if 1h-3♦ is weakish or invitational and not artificial then bid 3♦. If not I think a 1N bid is best, typical SAYC nebulous 1N bid but at least the HCPs are right this time. Luis

Luis, as usual with your posts, I find this comment very interesting. :) Would you suggest the same approach if the 1♦ opening were a Precision "nebulous" diamond (13-15 bal + 4441s + "real diamond" hands) ? Chamaco: It's different but as long as 1♦ can't be a hand with clubs instead of diamonds (it happens when you don't have a 2♣ precision style opening bid) then I think a 2♦ bid is the right way to start the bidding. With my pd I play viking club after our "nebulous 1♦" 2♦ is 10+ with 5+ diamonds. Opener's rebids are: 2h/2s: Spade/Heart features, maximum hand. 2N: Minimum hand without a real diamond suit (2/3 cards) 3d: Minimum hand with a real diamond suit. 3h/3s/3N: Heart/Spade/Club splinter with maximum and 4/5 diamonds (usually 5) So far I've missed only one 4-4 major fit Axxx - Jxxx, we played 6d making discarding the major in my pd's clubs :-) Luis

Helene: "There're no ethical issues" The rules are very clear: you are entitled to bid whatever you want to bid. I'm surprised to see so many players from all levels discuss the "ethical" aspects of psyches when they are the same ethical aspects as in the rest of the whole game. If you are ethical and play with the rules you know when you must alert opps about a "repeated psyche situation" and you know when you can't field a psyche and when you can and when the psyche become "evident". I believe there's no "special chapter" for ethics on psyches, the regular rules for ethical bidding and play apply. Another thing that puzzles me is how some bids that are not psyches are considered psyches, such as tactical bids and positions where a psyche is obvious and is even more likely than a normal bid.

If that's the case, you should have supported ♦ to begin with, either with inverted minors or some other way. You are already at 3 NT without r pd knowing you have a big ♦ fit. And if you want to be in game 5♦ much more likey then 3 NT. And some people might consider 3♠ a psyche, especially if not alerted. Mike ;) Now look at what we've just done with this hand: We have AKJxx of diamonds and so far we showed Hearts and Spades where we have xxxx, and Kxx. Now we suspect your pd 3NT bid can be wrong due to our own bidding and want to remove. So far we have: Denied a diamond raise twice with AKJxx in the suit. Announced a "heart suit" with xxxx Showed values in spades with Kxx Made pd bid 3NT where they may or may not run a zillion heart tricks or even clubs. If our plan was to reach a doubtful 3NT or a terrible 4h game the operation was succesful, I just think the patient can still die. The missing option in the poll should be "apologize and try to bid what we have next time"

When you have AKJxx of diamonds and pd opens 1♦ looking for a heart fit with xxxx is in my opinion a big mistake. Even if your 1♦-2♦ bid denies a 4 card major the 4 card heart suit can be well considered a 3 card suit but maybe some players will disagree with this evaluation. I will reckon that at MPs your style can be enough to reach the "stupid-panel 3N" game and get a non-heart lead and maybe a good score, at IMPs both experience and general theory will show you how wrong the 1♥ bid is.

2sp ment to show some power in spade to help partner bid 3nt if he got something in club. How should i'v bid it ? 3D doesnt sound like forcing to me. Sorry I should have asked what is 2♠ AND what is 1♥. Playing inverted minors this is a normal 1♦-2♦ start. Without inverted minors you have to use whatever bid you have to show a forcing hand with support for diamonds, some play 1♦-2♦, others 1♦-3♣ and I've seen other variations. If you don't have a forcing raise then 1) Change the system because you NEED a forcing raise. 2) Bid 1♠ over 1♦, since the hand is either a diamond slam or a 3NT game better show your pd where your real values are. Luis

Club to the 8, duck the 2nd diamond, take the third and repeat the club finesse. Other lines may work as well.