csdenmark

They won't do so Jimmy. You cannot compete for their salary. We have different structures here than you have. 1/2 of waiters here are skilled workers with a 3 year education period switching between practice and theory. They are working according to agreements with labour unions. As far as I have understood it is a level of training you don't have in America. 40% of danes has a skilled worker education. Regarding taxi drivers we have no formal training but they need to make some tests. Also taxi drivers are working according to agreement but not so formal. Taxi drivers are in fact no longer a job-categori for etnic danes.

I certainly enjoy somebody agree with me. I am not used to that here on BBO. But I wonder why all think they cannot agree without referring to tone. I tell you we have an intense debate in Denmark these days/months regarding freedom of speech. Muslims all over the world seems to blame danes for guarding fundamental rights for democracies. We also have a lot of managers from big danish company's and several former top-politicians and ambassadors who are in favor of the mullahs. They certainly all say the support freedom of speech but they blame the tone. The tone must respect the feelings of the mullahs. Here in BBO Foum I intend to look for future posts to any topic and any poster which will disagree to a statement but pleasing the nice tone.

I hope to understand you correct now. There is no way to leave an off-line message on BBO displaying the link as a link. As you point out it is displayed as a text. The text is the normal format for BBO. You are unable even to copy the text. I dont remember exactly whether an off-line message is only copied for chat-log or it is also displayed in your chat-area on BBO. If it displayed in chat-area it will possible to click your name for copy the your text and then manually insert link info into their browser. The good news is: Off-line messages are displayed immediately to members online. For those the link is clickable the way you prefer. For those off-line the message is copied for chat-log from where your members are able to copy/paste the link. I really think your best way will be to enter the links for your members into your file 'club news'. Then your message to your members will be to ask members to enter the club area and read club news.

Jimmy I don't understand your problems with the term moral. Maybe that's why I still don't understand your meaning of the word national interests. The way you think is your decent behavior to others - that reflects your moral beliefs. If somebody advocates cruelty I think they are advocating immoral point of views. Agent Orange and death penalty are just 2 examples of immoral behavior. You may find guidiance for moral in your political books, leaders in newspapers, the bible, UN covenants of human rights etc.

The later contributions here looks much more realistic to me than the earlier ones. Those working under such conditions are not those to blame and to suffer from low wages. So right to tip of course. Tips are mostly connected to restaurants and taxi's. Two areas very much problematic for a society. It is here we have problems with crime. Prostitution, drugs and black economy are the most common problems. Low wages are an incitament to make money from alternative activities. What is good service? They wear clothes in colours you like? Or maybe no clothes at all? They speak your language? They don't steal your credit card number? Or maybe only your beer has a temperature suiting you? You want to tip the fire-brigade to do their job? You want to tip service helpers for helping old persons? You want to tip the policeman catching the thief? You tip Bill Gates for no bugs in software? You tip shop keeper selling you shoes in correct size? Certainly not. The tip system is basically unacceptable. Those I have noticed in favour of such are pleased to have a cheap and easy option for charity.

Peter it looks to me that there are only slight differences in your descriptions of facts compared to Jimmy's. It would be of very much interest to me if you would be able to get a bit deeper into the decision structures. American political system is very different to what we have here. Lobby-groups, think-tanks, limit public debate, over-political presidential leadership. I often wonder why it looks like american president acts very strange. It looks like their most quailified decision is the appointment of an often very well-qualified foreign secretary. Is it so that foreign secretary is mostly independent of think-tanks and the political parties and financers but only needs to pay attention to lobby groups?

the result of any one political philosophy; rather, they were what this government felt to be in its national interest of the time Sorry - as this statement looks rubbish to me I need to ask you - what's the difference? it shows that the decisions are based on perceived nat'l interests and not on political philosophies... sometimes these discussions revolve around politics, and usually the decisions aren't politically based (usually, not always) Sorry I still don't understand - and it is not bad will Jimmy. For me danish natural interests are quite different than those assumed to be national interests for my political opponents. Fx. danish involvement in wars in general but especially long from danish borders. The danish EU involvement is another topic where the arguments goes like yours. That project has a long term perspective to make an end of Denmark as an sovereign nation. Such is a political view shared by our right-wing intellectual elite. Their perspectives for the future I certainly don't share. They are frightening and I am completely unable to see the interests of a nation to make an end of itself. Sorry Jimmy - the way I understand you I cannot buy your argument. The way I see the world is that a decision benefitting somebody is to disadvantage to others. I think it cannot be in any other way. 1$ can be used for this or that but not for this and that.

the result of any one political philosophy; rather, they were what this government felt to be in its national interest of the time Sorry - as this statement looks rubbish to me I need to ask you - what's the difference?

I like to see you feel deep solidarity with your country. I feel the same way for Denmark. But unlike you I think it is my responsibility to help friends to avoid problems. Simply to test the wisdom of proposed actions. If you want to be helpful to America you ought to pledge for US not to go abroad unless: a manifest will of those people to support citizens of US to apply to important international treaties like Geneva convention and international war tribunal There are at least one good example of interference by US. That is supporting Solidarnosc during whole 1980's. A succesful outcome we are greatful of - tumbling down the Berlin Wall. This was not done by military power but wisely done behind the curtains. US have failed not to support manifest will of the people: Hungary in 1956 Czekoslovakia in 1968 Iraq in 1991 US has intervened against a manifest will of the people Chile 1973 I think US ought to be more reluctant to police outside their borders. Please remember the mandate for an american president is 25% of US citizens now, earlier even smaller. Such will in a european context qualify for nothing else than cancellation of the election due to low turnout.

The point is that why if you have to pay 11,50 DKR anyway, why is it listed on the price list as 10,00 DKR? If I were a tourist (and I would be when in Denmark) I'd be very annoyed by not seeing advance the price that something will cost ME. If the price list says: 11,50 DKR, service included, everything is clear. So it is now. Everywhere price is now 11,50 as it was before. Before: List price..............10,00 Forced tips.............1,50(15%) ---------------------------- Customer price.....11,50 Volunteer tip.........?????? ---------------------------- Total....................11,50 + ??? Now: List price..............11,50 ---------------------------- Customer price....11,50 I think this is the same scheme in all societies with a public sector handling transferrings between generations. Customers and visitors to a country certainly don't know the structure behind.

Certainly not. To me this kind of debate reflects why politic is so difficult. What we have learned from the Mohammed riots lately is that exchange of views are what we really need. Bid-sequences of bridge are mostly just empty statements. Those threads you will be blessed by me advocating to close. Even the debate here turns from one topic to another one we learn much more about cultural differences in the world here than anywhere else in Forum. I am happy to see that some of the bridge players are more than just puppets. It is also very interesting to me to learn a bit about those americans who are backing USA. Those americans I normally have conversations with tends very much to agree with me and that I learn very little from. You see I very much agree with Peter but it is statements from Jimmy which are of most interest to me.

It is normal to arrive at the correct destination. However if he got there and you liked his driving style or he avoided a traffic jam, go ahead and tip. I'm not paying any fare if they don't take me where I want to go. If possible I prefer taking public transport though :) See Gerben the system was a little bit more tricky. The fare you see in the car on clock is 10 DKR. According to my working conditions the price is not 10 DKR but 10 DKR + 15% = 11,50 DKR. Thats the price I ask for. Thats the way for pricing you have accepted by entering a danish taxi. My question is: How much do you pay me. I ask you to pay 11,50, which is the price you are obliged to pay, and you see the price on clock in the car 10. I will need to declarate to tax-authorities as 11,50. What do you pay? 10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ??? On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter? 10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ??? Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law. So it was everywhere 20 years ago.

This wish I certainly share But the critic would be less justified because you would then have cleaned up your own house

yes, but that wasn't the question... could you survive as a nation if the us withdrew from nato? or if the us simply went into an isolationist shell? people either want the us to do just that or want the us to run foreign policy based on their own national interests (real or perceived interests) people forget that prior to wwII the majority in this country wanted just that, for america to isolate herself and let europe handle european problems... but one reason people here elect leaders is so they can lead... i can't think of anything more impotent than a country that formulates policies based on the opinions of foreign nationals, and/or on internal polls... even so, some want that very thing could you survive as a nation if the us withdrew from nato? Of course - but there will be costs. So as long as you stay we spend our money for something more fun than weapons. I will not be dragged into a WWII discussion. I have never studied. I am mostly interested in moral, economy, culture and science. If somebody want to have a war on Greenland it will need to be a summerwar. Even the russian nuclear ice-breakers cannot force top of Greenland after November. I intend to beat them with my red-nosed reindeers :rolleyes:

The way I understand is this: They are expected to receive 15% but you only pay 10%. Then you think they are only taxed by 10%. If I have understood you right - you are promoting underground economy. When I during my studies worked as taxi driver and I received too little tips - I had to make some tours outside the formal system in order to see to that I had my income. For all income inside the formal system I had to add 15% tips - no matter received or not.

i do not understand this.. most wait staff here make about $2.25 an hour... they rely on tips to live... most work very hard for their money... they are not beggars either I agree that they are not beggars, Jimmy, but to pay them $2.25 an hour is a disgrace and should be prohibited by law! Roland i'm no expert, but i think the reason is (and it's a federal law - i mean, wait staff is excluded from the minimum wage law) that restaurants could not survive if they had to pay higher wages.. the argument is the same as others dealing with mandated minimum wages, but for restaurants the profit margin and survival rates are so low that they are considered 'special' for show... he knows the answer it wasn't that long ago in this country, maybe 40, 50 years, when a 2 job household was unheard of... costs were down, prices were down, crime was down... moms stayed at home and raised the children...what happened? why are things so much worse now? i'll leave that for the social geniuses to figure out how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable? the argument is the same as others dealing with mandated minimum wages, but for restaurants the profit margin and survival rates are so low that they are considered 'special' We also have restaurants here and there are still opening new ones. They all pay salaries according to agreement with Labor Unions - and no tips. Same for taxi drivers. maybe 40, 50 years, when a 2 job household was unheard of Same here how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable? US is leader of NATO because they want to. US is on Thule because they want to. Nobody has asked US to come and nobody asks US to go. - I think US stays as long they see some point in their presence.

Let's try to test your statement a bit. You enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving the correct destination you are very happy. Pay the fare and tip. Now you enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving at Strand Hotel you are not so happy. Pay the fare. No tips I assume! Now you see a friendly a danish policeman helping the ducks to pass the street. You ask him to show you the way to The Little Mermaid. Through 'Strøget' he says - westwards. Grrrr. In your guide you have read thats for Tivoli. You give him 20 DKR - now he says - through 'Bredgade' - and now you are happy. That info was according to your guide - eastwards. You see we try to live according to value for money and try to avoid value for extra-money.

If Denmark can do this I do not see why our government cannot or will not do this. Exactly the argument Bill Clinton used for re-visiting Denmark a few years ago. To study how we are able to manage. I do not know the exact numbers in Europe but my guess is even less than 40% Not exactly sure but I think I have read a bit over 50%. Employment rate for women is one of the highest here in all Europe. Very rare for women not to have a job. Regarding your comments about weapons etc. you are right. We are taking advantage of USA here. If USA lowered their costs in this area we needed to raise ours. Something similar regarding science in general.

To understand my post you maybe need to know that the word for tipping in Denmark was no neutral word. The word used, directly translated, was 'drinking-money'. Such a word is not associated with needs to cover costs for raising children, housing or whatever needs you may have. It was also the word used officially in tax-declarations, so not only a popular word. Maybe you better understand why those living of such felt alienated. Drinking-money refers to social standards before 1933. By that time poverty in legislation was a qualifying argument for asking for some money. If the rich or the authorties felt guilty they granted you some money to survive. In 1933 first steps were taken towards welfare society where decent economical conditions for all became a right.

I don't trust restaurant owners to raise prices and give waiters a living wage, because I believe they'll raise prices and hire illegal workers and not pay them what they should Until recently such was no problem in western Europe. But it is coming on the agenda. Have you heard about 'the polish plummer'. The imaginare hostilization which defeated the draft for a new set of laws for European Union 1 year ago now. In fact the same problems we now see demonstrations about in France these days. The technical term is 'Service directive'.

I don't understand this. Do you all object to sales commisions? Many people work not at a flat rate but based on the revenue they generate. Some have no base salary. Others have a minimal base salary but then have there income supplemented by commissions. Even in industries where there is a large base salary, people's income is often supplimented by performance based bonuses. right now about 25% of my income is from my end of the year bonus. Accepted in Denmark. It is not tips but according to a contract. The salary structure in the service industry is basically commission based except its not a flat commission - the clients determine if you deserve 15% or 20% or on rare occasion more than that. The client can even leave nothing if the service is truely horrible. The idea of commission is that your income depends on how hard you want to work and how well you do your job. Maybe thats not a socialist ideal, but its certainly not obsurd. This you cannot do in Denmark.

It is no hostile info. It is a fact. So was the argumentation by that time. I think no company in Denmark today will accept their employees asking for tips. Thats certainly not the same as tips are prohibited - but tips are not welcome. High and decent salaries are welcome of course, but not tips. That is a part of different ways for societies. All danes have during last months learned that knowledge and acceptance of equal dignity for all human beings as our way of life is based on is very special - more special than we have ever dreamed of.

Wow. That's really rude and dismissive of everyone in the service industry in the untied states. Are you indifferent to the idea that someone might be insulted at being called a beggar or did it not occurr to you that you might hurt someone's feelings? No - but thats was in fact the reason. It was stopped by law. Tips were a part of their salary - they were taxed for 10-15%, I dont remember the exact percentage after so many years. They often did not receive the money they were taxed for. The Labor Unions - strong society power here, at least was by that time, demanded a stop. Tips unworthy for human beings - they work hard as anybody else. They have their expenses too. We have, more had I think, a welfare society. We don't accept to look at poor persons. All citicens in Denmark have rights for a decent life, education, housing etc. They also have the obligation to contribute their fair share to the best for all. If somebody in USA feel embarrassed to be named beggar - well - that was what the danes in mid-seventies no longer accepted to be named themselves.

Tips abolished in Denmark more than 20 years ago. - We are not beggars.

Slave trade, genocides in the New World etc etc. But you're probably asking for some more recent sins. There are a few: - Leaving all the durty work to the Americans and subsequently complaing that they didn't manage to destroy all evil in the World without causing any harm. (Ex-Yugoslavia, for example) - Protectionism - European agrilcultural policy in particular is realy something to be ashamed about. Protectionism - European agrilcultural policy in particular is realy something to be ashamed about Right Helene - but here our record is neither better nor worse than USA. In fact the same tragedy.