TWO4BRIDGE

Just curious... ....what are the replies ( to the 3D!-ask ) when the ( minimum ) Opener has shortness ? I'm assuming: 3S! = ♥ shortness 3NT = ?? 4C! = ♣ shortness 4D! = ♦shortness - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Also, if you don't mind, what are your replies ( to 2NT! ) when Opener has "extras" ?

THX, Siggy... Both partners had 7 loser hands eventho one has 13 hcp and the other 18.... which doesn't add up to slam...( 24 - 7 - 7 = 10 tricks .. maybe 11 tricks with a little upgrade, as you said ). I think the 18 hcp "blinded" the "thinking" about Loser Trick Count . Even if Opener had a Cl Ctrl ( turn one of his RED Kings into a ♣K ), it's a bad slam : K Q 10 9 x ...... A J x x J x x .............. A 9 x K J x ............. A Q x K x ............... Q J x

Larry Cohen ( the LoTT guy ) wrote on 5/1/2009 in his website ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3OUdOEcQbiYJ:www.larryco.com/BridgeArticles/ArticleDetails.aspx%3FarticleID%3D161+Advancer+Bids&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us ) about Advancer bids . He said the "big issue": "Is a new suit forcing? " He said you could adopt a simple rule. Then there are two possible ways to play it - choose one: 1) New suits by advancer are never forcing. He suggests that a jump by advancer is natural and forcing (he needs some way to show a good hand). OR 2) New suits by advancer are forcing (unless advancer is already a Passed Hand). If you have agreed to #1, then Advancer here will bid 2S-jump ( and it is not a fit-jump ). Overcaller raises to 3S ( as you said ). Advancer with his 4 loser hand is certainly worth a Ctrl cuebid OR with no 2 quick losers in the side-suits he could just go 4NT-RKC. The 4C! Ctrl cue will get you 4S by Overcaller-- sensing wastage opposite his void.

Same question for you if ♥ are trump? 1H - 2NT! ?? What would show a Sp Ctrl ( or lack thereof ) and no shortness but enough for game ? or does it start: 1H - 2S! ??

How would your system change if ♥were trump? Because: 1♥- 2NT! 3NT - ?? no room for a ♠ cuebid below 4♥.... ... or do you use 1♥ - 2S! as an artificial limit raise+ ?

I was thinking along those same lines and queried an expert I know. He emphatically said "NO" because how else could Responder find out about Cl-shortness if Opener had such a hand. He added that Responder has a perfect balanced GF raise... it's just that the " 4S bid ( in plain Jacoby ) is a slam killer" .

Tabs : click on icon on upper right in the reply options -- it has the little bars... the 1st icon of the four. Space: In the old forum there was an icon you could click on: space which appeared as enclosed in brackets [ ] for each space you desired.... and it still works here, but you have to type it out ( then highlight/copy( Ctrl-C ) and then paste ( Ctrl-V ) for each "space" you want)..... rather tedious.

The folks who play a system where 2NT! is limit raise + have the ability to STOP in 3S when both partners have "bad" hands. The "plain vanilla" Jac2NT is GF w/ 4+ support. These other systems ( all shown so far ) have the ability to find out about NO Ctrl in a side-suit BELOW 4S ( in a GF auction ) . This hand is a "poster child" for any of those systems. The one I know about is Swedish-2NT ( I think it is also called Stenberg-2NT after it's inventor ). 1M - 2NT! = 4+ support w/limit raise+ 3C! = any minimum..... etc, etc Thus, allowing Opener to show no shortness AND subsequent cuebidding to show NO Cl Ctrl BELOW 4S.

Only 2 Responders showed restraint and passed 4S: 1S - Jac2NT! 4S ( minimum, no shortness) - pass The rest went to 6S ( or 6NT ) : 1S - 2NT! 4S - 4NT! 5D ( 1 key ) - 6S/6NT Down 1 [hv=pc=n&s=saj63ha94daq7cqj8&n=skqt92hkj5dkj3c32]133|200[/hv] North Dealer... MP scoring... How would you bid it ?

You are right, 3H! showed 1st or 2nd Rnd Ctrl. Then 4H! next showed 1st AND 2nd Rnd Ctrls..... and NOT necessarilty a void, but could be either a) A K... or b ) stiff A or c) void. Clarification would come after partner's 4NT RKC-ask: 4NT - 6H = odd( 1 or 3 keys; must be 1 and not ♦A) + ♥void 6S ( no more room for any more asks )

Just use your plain vanilla Jac2NT ( ugly as it is ) to see if partner has shortness too. Shortness-opposite-other shortness gets lots of tricks with relatively few hcp... especially when you know you have 6 trumps opposite at least 5. • If partner has NO shortness and a minimum, he will bid 4S ... and you pass. • If partner has NO shortness and "extras", lets say he bids 3S! then start cuebidding: 4C! • If partner HAS shortness in Diam ( 3D! ) , you are off to the races: start with 3H! cuebid. 1S........................ Jac2NT! 3D! ( shortness)....... 3H! ( Ht cue ) 4C! ( Cl cue )............ 4H! ( ♥ void, denies ♦ Ctrl ) 4NT ........................ 5D! ( 1/4 ) 5H! ( trump Q-ask ) .. 5NT! ( yes ) 6S

Opener.............. Responder A K x x............... Q J x x J x x x................ x x Q J..................... A K 10 x x x A x x.................. x 1NT.....................2C 2H......................?? As long as bidding the LONG MINOR next w/4oM and you consider it at least GF -- no matter which structure one uses ( even if you play 4-suit transfers ) -- you will get to 4S: In regular Baze: 1NT - 2C 2H - 3D! ( 4s/5+d, GF>>slammish ) ?? ... 3H!/3S! = cues agreeing Diam ... 3NT = agree neither; to play ... 4S = 4-4 in the Majors >> and Responder will PASS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And in my system where 3C! = GF >> slammish, and either: a ) 4s/5+d or b ) Ht fit, asking for cuebids ; where 3C! puppets to 3D! to ask which 1NT - 2C 2H - 3C! 3D! - 3H!( a ) whereas 3S! = ( b ) 4S ( out of same options as above ) - pass ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ps. Since I play 15-17 1NT ( and not a Big Cl system ), the following sequence you showed is NF for me: 1NT - 2C 2H - 2S = 8-9 invite, 4s but not 4h; or 4s/6m, weak

I'm intrigued by the 4C! , ostensibly a splinter. Partner obviously will see he has "no wastage" in Cl ( even with the J x x x ) and will likely make a cue bid ( Diam or Hts ). But let's look at his point count. Playing 2/1, the 2S response is 8,9 exact . At best he has the remaining 3 Kings... and that makes the slam 50% at best ( Diam Ace onside ) . He can't have and A K K because that would have solicited a forcing 1NT!, and next the 3 card limit raise. If he has a hK and dA you have a 50% chance on the Sp finesse. If he has the dAK, you still have a 50% chance ( Sp finesse ). If he has the sK and dA, you are bound to have 2 red losers. • If you go 4C!, and partner bids a 4H!(cue ) you can sign off in 4S since he denied a Diam Ctrl. • If you get a 4D! Ctrl cue ... hell, go for it with 4NT RKC just to make sure he has at least 1 key card. If not, stop in 5S and pray. If so, go to 6S... and pray

I'll take that as a compliment. And none, sadly, have been tested at the table. I would have to find a partner as crazy as I am. I forget who said it, but it has been said that " 1NT ( and 2NT ) openers are 'slam killers' " . I'm trying find ways to dispel that notion.

Eat this. You are right, I didn't even notice Jilly was 4-4 in the Majors, but post #1 had shown 2S over 2C. So this is how it should have gone using my latest revised method: Opener................Responder A K x x............... Q J x x J x x x................ A K Q J..................... A K 10 7 4 2 A x x.................. 6 1NT......................... 2C 2H........................... 3C! slammish ( either Ht-fit OR NO Ht-fit but 4s/5+d ) relays to 3D! 3D! ( which is it ? ).... 3H! ( 4s/5+d ) slammish 4S*.......................... 4NT ( RKC for Sp ) 5C! ( 0/3 )................. 6D! ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask ) 7D! ( dQJ )................ 7NT ( counting 4s, 2h, 1c and 6d: even if dQJ tight ) _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ *4S, Opener has to bid 4S to show he was a 4-4 in the Majors because 3S! would be a Ctrl cue--agreeing Diam at this point. It is not a sign-off. Responder is in charge and has announced a slammish auction. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ ps. As I said before, "normal" methods would also get you to the same 7NT as long as Responder remains in charge with the "normal" 3D! GF,slammish bid over 2H showing 4s/5+d and NO 4h; and Responder makes a 3rd Rnd Ctrl bid immediately after finding the missing 3 key cards. The difference is I have the cuebidding ( and splinters, etc) options available if Responder really had a Ht fit instead of 4 cards Sp. Baze doesn't have cuebidding options ( just splinters and low level RKCG and the ambiguous 4D! "balanced" slamtry ) . And for those who use 3oM! to agree M ( instead of announceing a splinter somewhere ), they may commence with cuebidding, but splinters are rolled into the cuebids and in that sense remain "hidden" from Opener.

Granted it is a new structure for "Slammish-after-Stayman" but I don't understand what you mean about me not thinking ( as slow as I am in that department ). The Baze method does NOT allow Ctrl cuebids when the Major is agreed. Mine does yet retains the Splinter options and low-level RKC as Baze. I did sacrifice the "minor suit acceptance" ( for only one of the minors) when NO Major fit. But awm helped me improve the structure for the "no Major fit, but agree minor" hands. In fact I have a further improvement on that issue: exchange the 3H! and 3S! meanings: 1NT - 2C ( Stayman ) 2M - 3C! = slammish, ( either agree M or NO agree M, but have 4oM/5+d ) puppets to 3D! 3D! - ?? 3H!( always) = NO M fit, have 4oM/5+d 3S! ( always ) = M fit, and need Ctrl cuebids This way there is plenty of room for ALL outside cuebids for M-fit OR Diam-fit (when NO M-fit). This way you can determine early on if you have 2 quick losers in an outside suit, BEFORE RKC. I knoww, I knoww, sometimes I get the feeling I am the only one here who uses ( depends on ) RKC to find out if we are off 2 key cards. What I am guilty of is "highjacking" this post to expound on this new method. Again, awm has helped me immensely to re-think the idea. Perhaps it is "all wet", but I'm still "thinking" about it. I've run a number of example hands using Richard Pavlicek's Bidding Practice Dealer. But, I'll post some example hands using this method on the Non-Natural System Discussion Forum in the future.

Bingo... I'll be in 7NT via my post # 13 ( where 4C! was RKC-Gerber for Sp ) or using my new system via "baby RKC for Sp" ( post # 24 ) followed by a 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask for Diam( in either system ) ... and finding Opener with the ♦ Q J . To be fair, the other systems mentioned by others will be there also when ♠ are agreed and Responder does the "asking" -- RKC followed by 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in Diam.

After thinking about it some more, I've thought of a few more improvements over Baze . With Baze there is a way to show a VOID ( as well as a splinter ) when ♠ are agreed but you can only show a splinter ( stiff or void ) when ♥ are agreed. 1) With my proposal, you can show a VOID with either: Lets take ♥ as trump: 1NT - 2C! 2H - 3S!/4C!/4D! = splinter 1NT - 2C! 2H - 3C!( puppet to 3D!) 3D! - ?? 3NT! = baby RKC 4C! = ♣ Void 4D! = ♦ Void 4H! = ♠ Void [ And this is the same structure when ♠ are trump ] . 2) There can be a slight "optimization" if you reverse the suit meanings for 3C! and 3D! 1NT - 2C 2M - ?? 3C! = either (a) a fit for M and asking for cuebids or ............. ( b ) no fit, 4oM / 5+♦ 3D! = no fit, 4oM / 5+♣ This will allow room for more cuebids for Opener to agree the "minor" when no Major fit. For example: 1NT - 2C 2M - 3C! 3D! - 3S! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+♦ ( recall 3H! = fit for M and asks for Ctrl cuebids ) ?? .. 3NT = no fit for either .. 4C! = Ctrl cue for ♦ as trump .........whereas there would be no room for a Ctrl cue if 3C! meant ♣ Also: 1NT - 2C 2M - 3D! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+♣ ?? ... ( Opener has 3M or 3oM Ctrl cuebids agreeing ♣ as trump

I don't know if the Meckwell agreement applies to this auction when 1S is responded, but when Hts are agreed, 4S! = kickkback RKC for Hts and 4NT! becomes Voidwood for Hts, excluding the Sp Ace.

I can't improve on Da Fluster's .

I hope Jilly shows us the parent hand to see if the Grand Slam was there.

Perhaps crazy, but I thought of something else for the proposed system in my post # 21. Add "baby RKC " to take the place of the direct 4C-RKCG. In general: 1NT - 2C! 2M - 3C! = puppets to 3D! for further description 3D! - 3NT! = RKC for M This will free-up the direct 4C bid; we have already rendered the direct 4D bid as impotent ( and I don't recall it ever used ); and most everyone prefers the more natural splinter bids. Sooo, for example: 1NT - 2C! 2H - ?? 3S! = ♠ splinter 4C! = ♣ splinter 4D! = ♦ splinter And for Sp as trump: 1NT - 2C! 2S - ?? 3H! = ♥ splinter 4C!/4D! = ♣/♦ splinters ( Anxiously awaiting Zel(andakh)'s reality/sanity check for me )

Bill Higgins, a sometimes poster here, has summarized/modified the Swedish-2NT = limit raise or better ( 4+ card support ). Some of the treatment follows: 1M- 2NT! ?? 3C! = any minimum; 3D! asks for shortage 3D! = extras ( 15,16+) no shortage 3H! = extras and Cl shortage 3S! = extras and Diam shortage 3NT! = extras and shortage in other Major Note: after the minimum reply: 3C! - 3D! ( asking for shortage ) 3H/3S/3NT! define shortage in the same suits as above And the auction can be stopped below game also: 1M - 2NT! 3C! - 3M pass

Maybe we can " have our cake and eat it too " ... at a small price to pay . >> Create an alternative way to reach suit agreement at the 3-level ( which will keep awm happy by allowing control-cuebids at a reasonable level) and still retain the salient features of "expert standard" ( as described by wyman, bucky and myself ) << As is usually the case the natural Club suit bid (this time at the 3-level) takes a back seat: In general: 1NT - 2C! 2M - 3C! = puppets to 3D! for further description 3D! - ?? 3H!(always) = fit for M but need Ctrl cuebids 3S!(always) = no fit, but have 5+c and 4oM For example: 1NT - 2C! 2H - 3C! 3D! - 3H! 3S! ( Ctrl cuebid ) This is something you wouldn't have if you were to use 3S! ( over 2H ) to show a fit, slammish. Let's take a modification of the original hand: ♠ Q J 7 4 ♥ A 3 ♦ A K Q 7 4 ♣ 6 2 1NT - 2C! 2S - 3C! ( forces 3D! for clarification ) 3D! - 3H! ( Sp fit, asking for control cuebids ) 4C! - 4D! 4H! - 4NT ( RKC ) etc Yet we still have the direct 4C! = RKCG ( or 4D! if you so desire ) for the original hand as well as the splinter features, etc, etc. The direct 3D! bid by Responder remains the same ( = no fit for M, have 4oM/5+d ); but now the "no fit for M but have 4oM/5+c " is made by an "indirect" 3S! bid .

The small slam is a given. The proper grand slam needs a bit of info. If all the key cards are found, you don't need to ask about Kings: 1NT - 2C 2S - 4C! ( RKC Gerber for Sp ) 4D ( 3 keys) - 6D! ( 3 Rnd Ctrl ask ) ?? ..6S = x x x ( no 3rd Rnd Ctrl ) ..7S = x x ( small doubleton ) ..6NT = dQ ..7D = dQJ With the 6NT or 7D reply, correct to 7NT . With the 7S reply, just pass . With the 6S reply, Edit: just pass Edit....since this is RKCG, 5D! can be the 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask ( bypassing the K-ask step of 5C )