Walddk

You can hardly demand that women wear ties and jackets, but if you insist, I guess we need to appoint yet another sub-committee. The WBF Tie, Jacket or Not Sub-Committee. Roland

If you allow some signs then this will be a matter for the WBF Sign Approval Committee to decide. They will also have to decide what constitutes "tasteless" (and perhaps appoint a sub-committee for that purpose). Fred Gitelman Bridge Base Inc. www.bridgebase.com Hilarious :lol:

Harald, Fred and I are friends in real life, so trust me, I would never dream of insulting any of them. I actually started the initial thread by congratulating Harald and bridge in Norway in general. Yes, I should have started the thread in another forum; my fault. Eventually, it was moved to the Water Cooler. Fine. And I don't think Harald is offended in any way. I don't think Fred is either, and he was the one who started the thread. Funny how some people think it's their duty to be offended on other peoples' behalf. Roland

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever." Just as well you wrote "almost willing", because you would lose that bet against me. No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money". Roland

If you took a first round finesse with the 8 and it worked because LHO had a small singleton, congratulations. Hard to argue with success, but if you played like that, you played against the odds. The 8 wins when West has the remaining small heart singleton but loses when he has stiff 9, 10, and 9x, 10x. Even against 9xx and 10xx; not likely, I agree, but still. I agree with Han's line. Roland

All players are now back in their respective countries, also the American women. A few of them have been online after their return. Some of you know their usernames, some don't. If you do and if you feel inclined to send them a private message, I suggest (although I am one of the fiercest critics) that those messages are of congratulatory nature. If you must, salute them for what they did *at* the bridge table and don't mention what they did away from it. They have probably heard enough already. Roland

Just a pity that we're only 5,350 members given that BBO has around 150,000. Almost always do we see more guests than members. I wish they would become members and join the debates. I hope they know that this is for free too. Roland

Pass without much hesitation. At these colours I only pull if I expect to make and that minus 1 is poor compensation. I don't with those cards. Right, 4♠ might be on, so passing is by no means a clear plus. If we concede 590, we must just accept that the pre-empt worked beautifully for their side. Roland

I am impressed by the fact that you are impressed, pokerbids. We are all just ordinary people who like to express and share views, mostly regarding bridge related matters. Most of us don't know each other from real life, and occasionally we have fierce verbal battles. Nothing personal, just a heated debate. A slight correction to your post. The president of the USBF is a *she*. Jan Martel is her name, and she is a nice person and a strong bridge player. I can understand the confusion. In Scandinavia and the Netherlands for example, Jan is a male's first name. I suspect without knowing for sure that Jan (Martel) was named Janet by her parents. Speaking of first names in USA for instance, I have always been wondering how you can know if Pat Henderson is a male or a female. Is Pat short for Patrick or Patricia? I guess you have to see the person first to tell. Roland

I know the hand, so I won't comment. However, South's clubs were A8x. I agree with the line Bart Bramley pursued. He got it wrong in the end though, and I am sure he is still kicking himself. Since he did win the gold medal after all, he shouldn't be too harsh on himself. If I would trust anyone to play this grand slam, it would surely be Bart. Kit Woolsey was one of the commentators, and he sounded just as disappointed as Bart must have been. Roland

That would be 2 am in Central Europe; not so good either. No matter how hard you try, you can't find a slot that suits every time zone. Roland

Nice ! And, please, Roland, update the upcoming Vu-graph page asap ! Don't tell me that we have to wait till 27/10 to have a show ! :rolleyes: :D Alain No, we won't have to wait long, Alain. I sent an e-mail to Gerardo earlier today (he is the one who updates our vugraph schedule web page). He will as soon as he gets a minute. I can tell you and others that we will have the Lederer Memorial Trophy from London and the Queenstown Open Teams from New Zealand this upcoming weekend, and the week after (starting Thursday) we will move on to Montecatini for the Italian Club Team Championships. Roland

http://www.bridgefederation.no/t2.asp for pictures of the gold medalists when they arrived at Gardermoen Airport in Oslo late last night. Roland

We haven't yet heard from cascade, ulven, jlall and jdonn, but, like fred, I would be very surprised if they don't see it as a privilege and honour to play for their countries. Apologies if I forgot some BBF members. Call me sentimental, but I actually shed a tear or two when I, many many years ago, represented Denmark and listened to "Der er et yndigt land" (Danish national anthem). It was one of the proudest moments of my life. Anker Jørgensen (social democrat) was the prime minister then. I didn't vote for him. Don't know what my team-mates did, but it never crossed our minds to tell the audience at a bridge tournament. You get much more publicity today than you did then. Perhaps some people should bear that in mind before they do something they might regret later. As far as I'm concerned, I prefer to stick to the slogan you see a couple of centimeters below this post. Fred is roughly 20 years younger than me, but I know him well know to say that he subscribes to the same words. Roland

Much like the sign topic to begin with, why in the world would you even bring it up??? I don't know what your intentions are in bringing up either topic to begin with. But I hope they aren't as bad as they would seem to someone who doesn't know how much of yourself you have dedicated to Bridgebase and to bridge. Because it's a journalist's job to bring forward topics of general interest to the public. I can't tell how much you know about journalism, but that is how it works all over the world. You are entitled to think that this incident should have been swept under the carpet. I disagree. You can't pretend that nothing happened when it actually did. My judgement, rightly or wrongly, was that this is of general interest to the public. We had more than 4,000 views in the BBF so far, and that makes me think that my judgement was correct. I had no bad intentions; I was merely inclined to tell what happened during an award ceremony after the World Championships. Since you have posted several times too, I suppose that you wanted to express your views. That's fine although I don't agree with what you have said to this point. What my work for Bridgebase has to with this I don't understand. You are kindly requested to make it clearer if you want me to comment. Roland

Perhaps you haven't been watching the same sports events I've been watching Roland as unfortunately making political statements on the sporting field and/or victory podium is all too common. There is obviously the famous Olympic medal ceremony in Mexico City in 1968 where Tommie Smith and John Carlos, the gold and bronze medalists in the men's 200 metre race, took their places on the podium for the medal ceremony barefooted and wearing civil rights buttons, lowered their heads and each defiantly raised a black-gloved fist as the US national anthem was played. In Australia there has been a long-running controvesy over indigenous athletes, most notably Cathy Freeman in track & field, parading around during victory laps with the Aboriginal Flag which is closely associated with a political agenda championing social injustice and land rights issues. In the Australian Football League there was some controversy back in 2002 when a prominent player had the words "NO WAR" written on his arm during an official team photo which lead to the AFL forbidding players from making political statements on the field. At the cricket World Cup in 2003 (which I'm sure Roland was following closely) Andy Flower and Henry Olonga wore black armbands ". . . mourning the death of democracy in ... Zimbabwe". Not surprisingly, neither player ever played international cricket again. I'm struggling to find some actual examples, but over the last decade or so there was a proliferation of football (soccer) players having slogans written on their singlets that would be revealed during goal celebrations. Most of the slogans were quite benign (such as "get well soon Mum") but others were overt political statements which lead FIFA to banning players from removing their jersey to reveal slogans or advertising. I wonder how different our attitudes to Debbie Rosenberg's protest may have been if her slogan read "Stop Global Warming", "Save the Whale" or "World Peace". You haven't given just one example of where an athlete has been laughing through the national anthem. That was what my post was about. Smiles, yes, because they were overly happy, but laugh and ridicule, no. Take a look at the athletes when national anthems are played. It is visibly a very proud moment for them. It wasn't for the American women in Shanghai. I am aware of all the other incidents you mention. Roland

Really ?? Were they shooting birds at the flag etc. too, or sticking their tongues out etc., or other such things??? Sorry to be so ....er.... dubious.... and not to doubt what you say, but what you describe ....It's just (as I'm sure you know) inherently very hard to believe. No, there were no rifles, birds or tongues to be seen. I can understand that you are shocked nevertheless, but you can trust me. I was not in Shanghai, but it's my job to investigate because I am a journalist by profession. I have several reliable sources who all confirm what I have written. Don't ask me who they are because a journalist never reveals his sources. Some day, I don't know when, the rest of the world will see that I am right. Roland

They laughed through the national anthem???? All of them ?? Were they just giddy with excitement and glee, or were they actually making fun of it or ridiculing it? I find the latter alternative sort of hard to believe. Not really that, was it ? The latter I am sorry to say. I understand that you don't approve (thanks!), but I assume Jon does since he didn't comment. If I am wrong, perhaps Jon would care to tell us what he thinks. Roland

You are wrong on all counts, Jon. - 1. The presentation is an official part of the championships, so you have to behave on the podium too. - 2. If you don't approve of the conditions in a particular country, stay away. No one has forced you to go there. We have a saying in Danish: "Skik følge eller land fly". I think the English term is "When in Rome do as the Romans do". - 3. They don't bar anybody, they merely insist on their rights to enforce appropriate behaviour. That is quite normal. Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behaviour to laugh through your national anthem while holding a sign with that text aloft, I have lost what little respect there was left for him or her. I have watched thousands of sports events where national anthems were played. I have never seen anything like it and I sincerely hope that I won't see it again. Disrespectful is the most diplomatic word I can find at the moment. Roland

Really? Bridge is my living, so it's pretty important for me. The same applies to Fred and many others here. And try to ask the women who were involved in the incident in Shanghai. I think bridge means a whole lot to them too! Roland

The greatest honour for an athlete is to represent one's country. I know what I am talking about, and I am sure Fred, Josh, Justin, MikeH, Wayne B, Hedy and perhaps other regular BBF posters can confirm. The USA1 team members were selected by the USBF to represent .... yes, USA1! Whether you agree/like it or not, the USA1 team will be regarded as representatives of the United States of America. Consequently, every team member is obliged to behave as their country and federation expect them to. With dignity at all times. You may or may not agree with all the rules, but once you have accepted to play for your country, you have agreed to adhere to the rules. In my view, the American women did not when they were standing on the podium. "I will treat other players, coaches, fans, volunteers and officials with respect" must be the minimum one can ask for. If that is beyond your capability, there is only one thing to say: Behave or be gone. Roland

Here I have to agree. Where can we claim our salaries? B)

Yes I do. Just like they do in for instance football (soccer) and cricket when the authorities believe that they have brought the game into disrepute. They even impose heavy fines. They don't give them warnings first. Please note that I suggested a warning that would have no effect on their livelihood if they comply. Roland

They have. Try this ... http://usbf.org/docs/corpDocs/Bylaws.pdf and look at 3 e. The last part reads: "Support only those member participants who exhibit the highest caliber of sportsmanship, personal conduct and ethics". Judge for yourself whether the women have violated that rule or not. I would be surprised if this case did not reach the Grievance and Appeals Committee. The trouble is that Gail Greenberg is on that committee, but she must surely be out of the decision taking if it comes that far. Roland You seem to have skipped this post, Richard. If not, you must think that they showed the "highest caliber of sportsmanship, personal conduct and ethics". You are obviously entitled to that opinion, but then we see things differently. Roland

Read the post before your last. I am not the only one. It is obvious to anyone who can add 2 and 4. It was a team effort when they won the Venice Cup, and there is no doubt in my mind that it was a team effort on the podium. They won at the bridge table, but they lost on the podium. Roland