shevek

& this to unravel balanced 11-13 1D 1N* 2D 2H* 2S 4♠s 2N 4♥s 3C 5♦s 3D 2-3-4-4 / 3-2-4-4 3H 2-3-3-5 3S 3-2-3-5 3N 3-3-2-5 2S 2N* 3C 4♠s & 4♥s (one free space) 3D 4♠s & 4♦s 3H 4-2-3-4 3S 4-3-2-4 3N 4-3-3-3 This shows 21 of the 22 hands & wastes 1 space. The 2 that miss are 3-3-4-3 & 3-3-3-4. They can live quite happily with the 3-suiters with spade shortage (3 hands)

I'm used to 2C & 2D as 6+ no Major or 5-4 minors, as wclass advocates. 6 & no major is a bit too rare and overloads 1D. That leaves 1D as 11-13 bal or major canapes, or the 3-suiters. With this reduction, 1NT can be GFR. This means occasional responses in a 3-cd major, which is okay by me. Anyway ... 1D 1NT* 2C 4 ♠s 2D 11-13 bal, no 5cM 2H 4 ♥s, 5+ ♦s 2S 3-suited without 4♠s (3 hand patterns) 2N+ 4 ♥s & 5+ ♣s The 2-suited structure is square symmetric: 2♥ 2♠* 2N HS 3♣ 2-4-5-2 3♦ 3-4-5-1 3♥ 2-4-6-1 3♠ 3-4-6-0 3N 2-4-7-0 4C 1-4-7-1 (orphan) Likewise with ♥s & ♣s. Spade hands emerge at the same place. There are 7 3-suiters with 4 spades. I guess 7-3 is not a good split. Still, can resolve 7 by 3NT anyway. That leaves 2D for the 22 balanced hands. Unfortunately, Fibonacci means there is only room for 21 below 3NT. That's acceptable. An alternative is to bid 2C with balanced, throwing the 3-suiters in there as well, though this messes up some of the spade hands. Suggestions welcome.

Double Snapdragon. Not that I think it's clear or even right. Just surprised that nobody suggested it.

People have neglected to mention the PUSH SEAT. Best to agree that one player can look at the vul, the other just bids normally. You sometimes get this 1NT (15-17) - 2NT - 3NT where 2NT was bid on a bad 8 count "because we're vulnerable", accepted by opener on a bad 16 or good 15 count "because we're vulnerable". In this case, responder can push the boat out if he wishes but opener should bid straight down the middle.

Please save me some time here. 2C = 11-15, 6+ & no major 1D = 11-13 balanced (no 5cM) or what's left That's minors, or 6+ diamonds, or canape with a major, or 3-suited (no 5cM). You can relay with 1H or 1NT. Or ... If you want to exclude 6+ Ds no major by opening 2D with them, that's fine too. You can go further by offloading the 5-4 minor hands to 2C & 2D if you wish. Feel free to recommend the best opening structure.

Of course, don't need a spot for 55M hands after opening 1H so the 5440s with five hearts can take their place.

Here's a (quasi) symmetric scheme that's easy to remember and works well too -- we didn't use max / min, but use QP ask after shape was resolve (with terminator puppet, Moscito style RKC etc): 2C-GF relay ....2D-four+ clubs OR...four only diamonds ............2S-four only diamonds -> Follow short legged template at 3C+ ............2N-five clubs Follow LL template at 3C+ ............3C up-four clubs Short legged template ....2H-single-suited with six -> Follow single suited template ....2S-balanced or five diamonds ............3C-balanced with 5 of major Follow 5332 template ............3D-unravels 5M/5Ds -> LL template ....2N-five of other major -> follow LL template at at 3D+ ....3C-four of other major, higher shortness Short legged template Yes, 2H with the 1-suiters is probably right. You miss the 5440 hands but there are only 3 & you can fudge (as 5530?). There are other good permutations, such as 2D = 4+ diamonds or bal or 5-5 majors 2H = 6+ 2S = 4 in other major (not 5-5) 2N+ = 4+ clubs Certainly, saving that step on 1-suiters, having 6331s at 3H would please Olien.

From the other side of the planet, Scandinavian relay systems always seemed tough to learn, perhaps Viking Club suits their stoic natures. Anyway, symmetry should not be discarded lightly. A few points: 1) High shortage should come before low, because these are the hands where you need space for natural breaks. In other words, hands with major length often end in 4M so okay for zooming. 2) 5422 is common enough to stand alone and not be contaminated with rare 7411s. The space lost for a size ask is often crucial. I guess that's why symmetric puts the 55s first, need an extra step to include 6511s. 3) Point taken about swapping 3S & 3NT responses but we don't do it, partly because interference sends us up & down, which would confuse the endpoints. Also, relayer should be able to bid 3NT to play over 6430. 4) With 1-suiters, quite important to have all the 6331s come out at 3H or lower, though I couldn't manage that with the raised structure I suggested. Bad to have 4C as an SP ask. Remember, 1-suiters start at 2S in classic symmetric, which leaves room to resolve all 6322s , split the 7321s and have 6331s come out at 3D. WIth lack of space, should probably change that but it's not easy. 5) Good to show 7330. Since the structure is up 2 steps, that has to be 4C after you show shortage. 6) Of course, if you want to use space efficiently, switch to 4-cd majors, preferably with transfer openings or 1D = spades.

Preamble In designing a relay system, one method is to choose your opening bids & responses, then shop around for a relay structure that will unravel shapes. The other way is to find a relay structure you like - say symmetric - then devise an opening structure that can use it. Yes, you can use symmetric after 1M - 2C, though it's less than optimal. Symmetric seeks to describe all shapes below 3NT, leaving space at the end for the asker to make slam tries. The choice has been to focuss on shape at the expense of strength, to allow shapes to come out as low as possible. In other words, symmetric after 1M - 2C will not work if describer has to split the range in two along the way. Symmetric seeks to show common shapes by 3D, maybe 3H, leaving asker a slam try below 3NT. In its usual forms, 5431 & 6331 come out at 3D. Occasionally, interference forces the structure up one step, which is okay. 2 up is playable but undesirable. The symmetric style is to relay with game interest, intending to break with a limit bid on the invitational hands. If you don't have a game force, you don't want opener jumping too high on unsuitable hands, depriving you of your invite. This affects how opener should show balanced hands, 1-suiters & 2-suiters. Fibonacci There are 3 balanced shapes the open 1S in a 5cM system. 5-2-3-3, etc. After 1S - 2C*, where should you put them? One possibility is a jump to 3H/S/NT. Another is 3C. Then asker bids 3D to get you to resolve the doubleton. You might not fancy those, partly because you may not want to be in game opposite a balanced 11-count. If you want ber able to stop in 2NT, these balanced hands have to be bundled with other hands at 2D or 2H. That leaves us with 1-suiters (6+) and 2-suiters (& awkward 3-suiters). It may seem best to jump with the various 1-suiters but 2-suiters need more space, so try this: 1S 2C* 2D S & D, or bal 2H & Hs 2S 6+ Ss 2N+ S & C You could swap the suits around but simpler seems best. Don't want to throw the heart hands in with balanced, in case responder has an invite of 2NT, jeopardising the 4-4 heart fit. Yes, you could swap clubs and diamonds for right-siding but let's keep it simple. So 2H = S & H with 5+ spades. Then we have 2H 2S* 2N 5-5 3C HS (high shortage) 3D even, so 5-4-2-2 3H LS, 5-4-3-1 (LS = low shortage) 3S LS, 6-4-2-1 3N LS, 6-4-3-0 4C LS, 7-4-2-0 If opener shows HS via 3C, the endpoints are the same: 2H 2S* 3C 3D* 3H 5-4-1-3 3S 6-4-1-2 3N 6-4-0-3 Compared to usual symmetric, the structure is one step up, which is okay. For 5-5 hands, see below. With S & C, you ZOOM straight away to resolve shape: 1S 2C* 2N 5-5 blacks 3C HS 3D 5-2-2-4 3H LS, 5-3-1-4 3S LS, 6-2-1-4 3N LS, 6-3-0-4 Of course this makes it hard to stop in partscore. Tough! The six 5431 hands all bid 3H at some stage, avoiding memory strain. Symmetric trades some effective use of the space for symmetry. 55s come out okay: 1S 2C* 2N 3C* 3D HS 3H 5-1-1-6 (3NT, canape first) or 6-1-1-5 (4C) 3S LS, 5-2-1-5 3N LS, 5-3-0-5 I had to give up something, the three genuine 3-suiters 5-4-4-0, 5-0-4-4, 5-4-0-4. Fudge or see below. That leaves diamonds OR balanced (or 3-suited?) 1S 2C* 2D 2H* 2S balanced or 3-suited 2N 5-5 3C HS 3D 5-2-4-2 3H LS, 5-3-4-1 etc If you wish to throw the 3-suiters in with balanced 1S 2C* 2D 2H* 2S 2N* 3C 3-suited, then 3H = 5-4-4-0, 3S = 5-4-0-4, 3NT = 5-0-4-4 3D 5-2-3-3 (HS) 3H 5-3-2-3 (MS) 3S 5-3-3-2 (LS) The 1-suiters don't fare as well, since the structure is two steps up compared with straight symmetric: 1S 2C* 2S 2N* 3C HS 3D MS 3H semi-balanced but not high (relative shortage) so 6-3-2-2 or 7-2-2-2 3S LS, 6-3-3-1 3N LS, 7-3+2-1 This is okay at locating singletons. 6331s all come out at 3S. 1S 2C* 2S 2N* 3C 3D* 3H HS, semi-balanced so 6-2-2-3 or 6-2-3-2 (maybe don't resolve these) 3S HS, 6-1-3-3 3N HS, 7-1-3+2 There's a possible scheme. This is not so tough to learn if you're prepared to do some partnership bidding. It's exactly the same after 1H: 1H 2C 2H spades 2S 6+ hearts Then go the next step and adapt it over 1C - postive. Then get onto Slam Point asks and denial cue bidding. It's never-ending ...

CoG (Choice of Games) cue bid is our style. We focus on finding the right game, prepared to take a hit on slams. Had this the other day: (3♦) 3♠ (no) ? ♠65 ♥AQ762 ♦74 ♣KJ85 Partner bid 4♥ over my 4♦ with ♥JT4 which proved best. Transfer advances not so useful with this example. Not keen on non-leaping Michaels either. Was playing it the other day & held something like AKxx xx x KQTxxx Over 3♥ I tried 4♣ anyway (5-5 blacks) but our 6-3 club fit proved better than the actual 4-3 spade fit we played. I would l ike to bid 4♣ natural, depending on partner to bid 4♥ to check for a spade fit.

Who has either used BBO data or done a complicated double-dummy simul to address this? Bridge teachers would appreciate some facts. Such as "If partner opens 20-21 2NT, should I bid game with a balanced 4-count?" A crude way would be to generate hands that conform, imput them into DMPRO, run Deep Finesse and look at the outcomes. A single dummy analyser (like Jack?) would be better. How tricky would it be to include shapely hands & shortage points, location of honours, etc? Sounds lie a huge job, worth being paid to do.

I strongly prefer T to the widely spaced 1 0 seen on BBO. I guess a compressed 10 is good too. Anyway, I blame the wide 10 for quite a few misbids. Fred said it won't change. Just wondering why Nick

Start BBO windows program & "open bridge movie from your computer" Browse to \hands\shevek & click on the .lin file with the right date. Hit the printer icon to add you comments. Send this match.txt to your long-suffering partner.

Only one running minor you can have, so won't happen often enough, as compared to (2♥) 3♥. Good to be able to Michaels & pass 3♥ or 3♠.

Then you need another way to raise diamonds if 3♦ shows 5 hearts. Not to mention 3♠ getting doubled for the lead. Transfers are good but not worth a t-shirt.

Prefer 3♦ over 2♦ as majors. Then what are 4♣ & 4♦? I prefer these to show clubs & the corresponding major, so 4♣ = clubs & hearts, 4♦ = clubs & spades.

I did some analysis of this once. In serious imp events, they bid 40% of the time over our 16+ 1♣. That rates to be a bit higher if 1♣ is 15+. In less serious events and against weaker opponents, I reckon the intereference rate is higher and more costly to them. Strong club is becoming rarer these days, so opponents have fewer opportunities to try out their home-grown counters. As a consequence, they (1) make system errors and (2) bid when they should pass. You know the sort: 1♥ = at least 4-3 in 2 green suits. We score well against such action, partly because we have a feel for these auctions and they don't. If 2nd hand doubles or bids 1♦, we play system on. Simple stuff, meaning X(XX) = 5-8 any, higher bids artificial GF (symmetric relay). X as 5-8 any is not ideal but they usually help us out with silly pass-correct bids. If they overcall 1♥ or 1♠, we give up relay and play transfers. 1♠ by responder is natural, usually 5, 1NT nat non-force, 2♣ - 2♠ are suit transfers. That all works well, whether or not they show a suit. We bid their 4+ suits to play. If 1♥ = majors, 1♠ by responder is still natural. Against natural 1♥ & 1♠ overcalls, double is takeout,. Not 1-suited, so double then a suit is ELC-style. A double of a random 1M overcall is takeout if they will hold the bid suit half the time. For instance, if 1♠ by them is reds or blacks, double is takeout of spades. This is not ideal, not the best way to collect penalties but will do. If the overcall 2M, we play 3-level suit transfers Rubensohl-style. Only over majors. If they overcall 2♣ or 2♦, it's natural by us. Non-forcing at the 2-level.

It would be correct if the Stayman bidder promised a 4-card major, but many do not. This is most commonly seen in partnerships that do not play 1NT-2NT as natural, and therefore must go through Stayman to show any balanced invitational hand. If you play that, responder in the above auction usually denies a 4-card spade suit. If he has an invitational hand with spades, he should bid 2♠ rather than 2NT. So there's no point in opener looking for a spade fit. Either pass 2NT or bid 3NT. I like to use Stayman on a range of weakish shapely hands. For instance: ♠QT54 ♥8 ♦AT4 ♣QT764 Stayman here gambles on a spade fit or landing in a better spot than 1NT. Mike Lawrence advocated this approach. Over 2♦/♥, you bid 2♠ to show this - weakish with 4 spades & a long minor. As a corollary, 2NT over 2♥ would be the invite with 4 spades. This scheme rather depends on 2♣ guaranteeing a major.

By all means rebid 1♥ & 1♠ with canapé hands. Precision has an unhealthy fixation wiuth 5-card majors. 5 to open 1♥, respond 1♥ to 1♣, rebid 1♥. I think they should all be 4-carders but you'd be looking for a new name. If 1♥ & 1♠ rebids could be canapé, you take strain off 2♣ & 2♦, which is good. Still, you need to be prepared to play a few 4-3 major and minor fits. After 1♣ 1♦ 1♠ 2♠ you need some adjustments. Since this could be a 4-3 fit, opener needs 5 for a normal game try. With just 4, opener can rebid 3♣ & 3♦ as non-forcing canapé tries. 3♥ could be a help-suit trial, 2NT can be something fancy, such as start of a short-suit try. The problems come when responder has a bit too much for a single raise but only 3 trumps. Say: ♠K76 ♥T4 ♦A7654 ♣872 If 1♠ showed 5, you would bid 3♠ or equivalent. That's dubious opposite a possible 4-carder. Either make a heavy single raise or have a Drury style 2♣ bid to show this. The other issue is opener's 2♣ & 2♦ rebids being 5-4 either way. That makes a traditional forcing notrump less workable and jeopardises the 5-2 major fit. For instance 1♣ 1♦ 1♠ 1NT 2♦ ? ♠J6 ♥A753 ♦J43 ♣T654 responder should pass now in the possible 4-3. Bididng 2♠ risks a silly 4-2. None of this bothers me in the slightest.

I like that Justin! Pass-double inversion.

So 4♥ then pass is mainstream. I have a slight issue with this, playing a strong club system. Because responder will bid 4♥ on a wide range of hands, opener will be loathe to save in front of partner, catering for the trapping high card raise. With, ♠x ♥AKxxx ♦xx ♣AJxxx opener may think he has no business at the 5-level. If he knew 4♥ was always high ODR, he would save at the vul. Of course, this conflicts with the clear benefits of frequently jumping to game opposite a limit opening.

Here's your hand: ♠T6 ♥J98632 ♦43 ♣KQ9 Favourable vul at IMPs, partner opens 1♥, pass to you. 1♥ is 11-15, 4+♥s, denies 4♠s, could be canape. 3♥ would be shapely but not crap. (If you wish to bid spades, it has to be 2♠, since 1♠ is relay) Well, I guess you could psyche the relay if prepared to live with the consequences. A few thoughts ... 4♥ seems more attractive here than in Standard because strong clubbers are known to game raise with good hands, which might intimidate the 4th player. On the other hand, this feels like a hand where they will make whatever they bid. If so, the higher you bid, the better their chances. If you bid 4♥, will you dive over 4♠? Or over Dbl - no - 4♠? If you'd rather divert, what do you think gives the best chance to avoid -620? Would your strategy change at nil vul?

When you play symmetric relay, it makes sense to drop the structure on as many auctions as possible, once you 've done the hard learning yards -- not that hard really. 1♥ as 19+ stuffs hearts somewhat. We bring them back via 2♣ = Aspro, hearts & another, could be canapé 2♥ = 6+, 16-18 Relay is good to pickup the 19+6 games and slams, ideally right-siding and keeping the strong hand unknown. After 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ (0-4) opener can nestle in 1NT and other auctions are clearer too.

Everyone else seemed to understannd this but I don't. or chose to ignore it I took it to mean partner would not open 1D with 4432 shape. What is unclear about it? i c i'm used to "4432" as any 4432 combination. 4-4-3-2 is a permutation. Some these days like to open 1♣ on something like 3-4-4-2 to make full use of transfer responses and prevent an unwelcome 2/1. In that regime, 1D is presumubly 5+ or unbalanced.

Everyone else seemed to understannd this but I don't.