Halo

2D with a better hand 2C or 3C. Never 2S. Prefer mostly 2C followed by something interesting with a good hand. Of course ...

These calculations are completely determined. You cannot include incomplete outside suits. You can make assumptions. Includes you can make assumptions about opponents play, eg honour splitting. Once you do make a set of assumptions the numbers follow. You can like them or lump them. In this case 3-3 is noticeably better than 50%.

Can't resist another attempt. Your partner makes a bid he clearly expects you to respond to (5 year old says 'forcing is not the issue'). You initiate a debate as to whether it is theoretically forcing. Let's say your partner agrees with your theory that it is NF (say at the 98th percentile of responding hands), but says 'what excuse did you have for passing - were you just proving a point on your 64th percentile hand.' Is eveything in Bridge abstract logic, or is it closer to statistical analysis? Bring on some more 5 year olds (big glass half full).

OK I accept all your assumptions, and in your place I would not have passed 2S. I think that is much what I said in my original post. If anything I have allowed myself to be sucked into your argument.

The OP said: So the issue of this post is NOT the meaning of 2S. The meaning of 2S was specified. It is not an artificial bid. The OP asked very bluntly, as the last sentence of the post, given it's own paragraph The context of the problem is set by the OP. What, please accept that it did show 3154 when it was 2164. Odd place to start a discussion. If Jlall and Jdonn want to set all the parameters for the discussion, we needn't waste our time.

Forcing or non-forcing just(in) isn't the issue. Is partner desperately trying to improve on the known 52 fit? Why on this Earth would partner do that? So he is strong, but you want to take control and say '.. sigh... I have an excuse for deciding the final contract is 2S'. Well - do it, and then at least apologise when you are wrong, and take credit when you are right. Preferably no philosophy.

I don't think I can find out what I need to know, so it's just an RKCB blast for me -might as well be now as later.

Unusually narrow range of contributors to this post. Too boring and obvious... too something...? I welcome hearing from the usual suspects and I'm not usually disappointed to this extent. Can't guess what the inhibition is.

Ok Have it your way when you play your agreements. I like the 2S bid and would have signed off via 2NT. I just don't get this certainty stuff. But if this is just a forum for a single approach to bidding, I took up your time.

Ok...i'll try one more time... When I opend 1D that wasn't forcing...so what.

Where did I say I wanted to be in game at all costs? Jump shift more says that to me.

Difference of philosophy? Why am I jump shifting with a singelton in the suit of a 5/6 point partner? I am happy to learn about different perspectives and not keen on dogmatic certainty.

If partner is 3154 with 16 or 17 then where are you going? 2S is very likely the last plus. When you have no fit and no points and you're in one of your 7 card fits (the one that rates to play best) at the lowest level possible how can it be wooden to pass? He meant John Wooden would pass, and he was a great winner. Thanks for the compliment. Debate is healthy. So in this world where we keep the auction open on more or less nothing, I have to leap around with no fit to move things on? Well if it works for you, you are no doubt always right.

Definitely forcing for me. I would expect 3 spades, but the actual bid is imaginitive. I think passing is wooden.

I have read the discussion of the actual hand with interest. I would say North bids 2♠ on that hand 100% of the time. Double, no thank you, 2♥ - looking at my watch for the end of the evening already.

I'm passing and not backing in. I do come from a Bridge culture where 1NT is non-forcing <3 spades - so the likelihood of a misfit is already high.

I went for 3♠ because my trumps are poor and I think partner has some fit with me. Several people have mentioned that they would have overcalled 2♠. This is, I think, the dilemma: our methods have left us out of step with the room. Now we can either optimistically assume we have been given an opportunity to double that other NS didn't get, or we can assume that we are near game in spades. Maybe wrongly I prefer to play rather than defend.

In my world this LHO ducking just isn't happening when East has five - is East returning an ambiguous card? No.

Top spade Other ideas at trick one are too nebulous for me.

The plays appear technically equivalent because of the spade suit, but that implies the ten is better since opponents may not play perfectly. Without the spade suit it has been understood for a long time that the ten is best for restricted choice reasons.

I guess different style. I don't have to sign off with that hand. I opened. With: Jx, Axxxxx,KJx,xx I will bid 2H as a passed hand. Don't want to scandalise anyone by taking away the jack of diamonds

Obviously depends on your methods. If all the weaker game interest hands are fit jumps (say), and 2 over 1 is unexpectedly good for the auction, then I can understand mild slam interest. If partner is just taking advantage of being a passed hand to get his 5 hearts and spade tolerance into the auction, then it's just a game bid.

Pass. It is what I would do in real life.

4H Good news that partner has five hearts. I confidently bid game. If the guys who bid slam beat me, they might deserve it.

Can't vote, because 4NT will be RKCB. Now I see this hand that I have never held, I sort of wish it could be 4NT quantitative. I am in the 3S camp.