dake50

Tried a similar approach. Trying to keep a "grab-it 1Nt", 2C was a trump ask, relay asks or picture raise stepping out. 2D was to explore other suits for fit/size.

Even more interesting would be system-pair by masterpoints won. Like glen Astons table of world-class pairs. Even local pairs graded by performance-system would be interesting. My inclination is Precision, Wa-Std perform well because much needs to be discussed to begin to play them. Discussion gets results.

Was partner's 1S overcall asking to compete with a fit and an excuse? I have 4-support, A void. A side 6-suit with an honor. I'm bidding 4S.

In the OP, there was a forcing pass over 4♠. This implies that partner does not have significant values in spades, or else he would have doubled. In short, I meant what I said. What you are saying is that slam might be possible even if partner had doubled 4♠. I suppose it is possible, but it is less likely than if partner makes the forcing pass. I am not willing to bid a slam over the forcing pass. Hopefully partner will be able to do something intelligent over 4NT. -- ArtK78 *** Absolutely, so agree. The forcing pass should have some slammy potential. Double warns against further unless I have the nuts. Now only the details of what is a minimum to use forcing pass. Do you disagree with my posted minimum? Do you disagree with my "must choose double"?

I agree. Just because partner showed a strong hand and did not double 4♠ doesn't mean that there are 12 tricks here. And if there are, partner should have a reasonable idea where to play it when I bid 4NT. -- ArtK78 *** Should this be "Just because partner doubles, doesn't mean there aren't 12 tricks here" "And if there are, I'll have a reasonable idea how to continue"??

First 3H over 3D is a generally exploring GF with a heart suit. Much better to jump 4H (even 5H) to say "don't need support, don't consider another suit for trumps, just side control tricks." To me that starts with a clear message. *** The problem is to constrain partner without a Diamond control. Should then jump 4H have OR deny Diamond control??? Then no Diamond control starts 3H? To insist some Heart contract.

I'd bid 4NT and then pass the response. Driving slam seems excessive, especially if we're going to play in diamonds. It's easy to picture hands with no spade wastage, but partner is allowed to have a spade card. I wouldn't expect him to double 4♠ with Axx Kxxx Axx AQx. *** Disagree. If partner does not see slam, either a spade card wasted in a 16-18 or poor (<5) controls, he must double (as a no slam warning). Even with maximal controls 17, this hand has the abysmal 3343 = deduct 2. If he does have a miracle hand like xxx AKx Axx AQxx I expect he'll tell me about it. -- gnasher *** That's about his expectable normal to employ forcing pass. He won't let any move by me to further describe my 2D-GF stop short of slam. *** As others suggest, this is an area in bidding theory that is woefully under discussed, even to by-guess, by-golly. Seldom even some bids chosen are clear; others murky. *** After forcing pass was chosen, I try 5S. Partner should have little wasted in spades and more than minimum honors opposite my 3-suiter. I expect he reads a slam-agreeing 3-suiter picks 5S.

Like others I would have opened 3♦ but have a related question. If you bid 3 diamonds now shouldn't it show 4 hearts as well, else why on earth did you pass first time? -- Lorne50 *** Me too. A bid not chosen last round, must have been for a reason. Wal-lah. A 4cM not to be lost.

Some friends of mine are looking for help with their 2m structure (natural 10-15). Their 2m opening promises a 5+ cd minor and denies a 4-cd major. 2m can include 5m4m22 and 5m4m31 and 2C handles 10-12 with 5m5m. Their 2N opening is 13-15 with 5m5m. So I know we've discussed similar structures before but I'd appreciate suggestions or links. -- straube *** Way ahead in the trying to win the minor vs Major battle. Start 2m above their easy 1M over 1m. Three main goals now. Stops for 3Nt. 4M when partner has 5+M. And slam tries. I like 2-level to show stops, partner repeating a good 5+M in case there is a 5-3,6-2 M-fit; and immediate jumps as fit bid raises, one jump reserved for slam asks (how good are your trumps? Relay = how many aces? Relay-2 = show kings? with non-relays = suit ask, any top honor in this suit? and, or next = exclusion ask, and/or = this is my single or void picture splinter.

2C is really clear for me. I don't think this really gives the opponents that much information about the hand, -- awm North or South "I'm borderline for a slam try but I have no wasted Club honors, I'll try." Gets opponents to the "we told you so" slam. Do you really think taking the 1-level away hampers them? Much? I have DQ so unlikely partner's D-lead blows our defense; even HJ saves a blown trick in hearts. So, no need to insist on a club lead. Little gain. Just bidding because it's my turn against their high-powered 1C opener.

I guess I want to be in slam. 2D won't have CA for fear of scaring off a failing slam.

I would already have gotten my spades into this auction with 2S over 2D. Let partner get slammy or not. After that start, I'm well placed: not enough to wait to show, but length in my bid suit. I have DA, show that. Done.

I'm really tempted to 1S. I have a rescue good club suit. Little chance this is our hand, maybe blow smoke works. Partner won't go too high, he knows we're just obstructing.

Recurring problem that is much easier with intermediate js (8-11). -- kenrexford *** Yes, put a bottom on the 6xS hands. Then this becomes a minimum for 1S then 2S rebid - promoting Q in partner's suit + 2xA.

I never addressed whether the game try was or was not correct, instead focusing solely on the acceptance with Responder's hand. That said, if you are suggesting that 3♦ was too aggressive because partner cannot have three cover cards, it seems fairly easy to see that ♠A, ♦Q, ♣K works well, as few would deem a 9-count a limit raise, especially if 4-3-3-3. Plus, your observation is that "a wide-ranging single raise should/must have less than a three sure tricks top." Suppose that I agree. The stray diamond Queen is hardly a third sure trick, especially if doubleton. (If the club Queen for Opener is dubious, same for partner?) Thus, any combination of Aces and Kings plus the diamond Queen should work, eh? This of course is why the 3♦ call seems spot-on, identifying the one card that might not be known to be a sure trick as now worth something substantial. ** So you agree A+K +DQ ain't 3 sure tricks raise, so it fits a wide-ranging single raise. How about the 3x or 4 primes cases?? Are you suggesting those also start wide-ranging raise?? Or will you disagree(while agreeing my point) again that there should/must be another start for some such gooder 12??

Playing standard responsive methods over a 1NT opening which is permitted to include a 5-card major, it's not usually possible for Responder to check for a both a 5-3 fit in Responder's 5-card major and a 5-3 fit in the other major. This is quite a neat solution to the problem. Not necessarily. After 1NT-2♣Stayman-2M, many pairs have a way to find out on the next round whether Opener has a fifth card in his major. *** And Smolen finds 3-5? With no aspirations for higher? Or 3-5 fit found; automatic control bid from opener?

4♠ was an idiotic bid. Partner has what appears to be at most two cover cards for you -- the diamond Queen and the heart King. If that is enough for game, he is expecting a 5-loser hand. With most 5-loser hands, you would blast game yourself anyway, so his take is already suspect. But, let's assume a 5-loser hand that is poor on HCP's. This is usually a 5-5 holding. Something like your hand with an extra diamond and one fewer club or heart and probably not the club Queen. If you have that hand, the heart King is only potentially useful if you have short clubs. So, that King is only worth a 50-50 trick 50% of the time, or 25% of a trick. Plus, it is a less useful trick because it does not support some other diamond card or spade card in your hand needing support. Compare how more useful the diamond or spade King would be in protecting and growing up your hypothetical spade or diamond Queen or Jack. Thus, the heart King may well force another finesse in one of your two suits frequently and might instead by 12.5% or 20% of a trick. Plus, if partner wants to be a lunatic and encourage you further, he always has a hedging 3♥ option over your 3♦, whether that for you is game last train or a card, either of which works this time. The solution, then, is not so much systemic as CHO judgment. -- kenrexford *** How many of SA +HAK +DQ +CAK might a single raise cover?? I'm assuming most of those that do have more than a single raise 12. Or does no "super 12" (I got 3 tricks for you) exist by some other start? A wide-ranging single raise should/must have a less than a three sure tricks top. Something else for such good stuff.

North doubled 1♠? Odd. But you might reach the same spot starting with 1♠-p-p-x. *** How can he handle likely developments?? With a 13!!!??? As for the play, I can't add anything to Rainer's analysis. -- billw55 *** Well done, Rainer

I think it's fine to double on a hand that would have responded 1♥ and this qualifies very easily. However I would bid 4♦. The heart suit won't matter unless we happen to strike a layout where both 5♦ and 5♥ are making which is fairly unlikely compared to the good things that can happen if we raise to the limit immediately. -- nigel_k *** Absolutely agree. Why am I offering blab -I have hearts- when it is so likely opponents have a 4S/not decision?? And I can suggest 5D will be cheap to partner.

Pick the bones out of this disaster where slam has better chances than 3NT. 2NT by South would have been natural. - wanoff *** Q-bid with one control? And that didn't light a "grand" fire?? 2Nt with this bal, quacks, stops hand. Then 3D by North at least finds a good C-fit to land in slam try. *** When would South show his C:Qxxx support?? Of course 3Nt after his stre-e-etch Q-bid last round. Still North is worth his own 4D Q-bid, esp if 4Nt is a landing spot (not keys ask).

(2cl precision) - p - p - ? *** What does partner NOT have to NOT T/O dbl, not 2D, not 2H, not 2S? In my partnership not a MM AQ+A, not 5+suit with 10 hcp. Could he have 4xS with a C-single +2x red K's and we'll find 4S? Barely persuaded to try 2S -- mostly because pass is so committal (quits for a 4S try; quits for a 3H,3D partial on K-6th red over there). As Jinksy, pass is likely the winner. I just can't bring myself there.

South claim that north pass over 4♣ double should show stronger hand than he had. North claim that his hand is not the worse hand (he doesnt have waste in club) and he is not showing more than this (he could cue bid if he had a very good hand). *** Then *should* North's 4D mean "Diamond quacks, not worthless for slam"? Thus he should bid 4D on the shown hand. **Or 4S with S:QJx(xx) having H:KQx support?** If 3S is reserved as a control bid, doesn't that force H+S into 4C? Thus that 4D bid above instead of 4H = quits? How does opener untangle H+S, H+D, H+S+D, H-one suiter (w/wo 3xtops) and extra controls? With the structure posted, ain't you boxed in --"guess if my stuff works" -- often? Especially this hand?

Is it possible that p would bid 4♣ on a void? It is not like he needs fitting honors in clubs, any club finesse is likely to work anyway. --helene_t *** I play lead-director included in what must be labeled "fit bid". (you must have some pithy for the bidding diagram) Partly to clarify later 'Lightner' doubles, eg: if I cudda shown my void, I wudda, so sumpin' else. So, yes that is possible for me - unusual conception of this hands layout, but possible, how are clubs sitting? 5 in 1C opener, partner void, 4 with 1H xfer. My question for any 'nuther' act is how much may partner have for his pass over 1C? 'trap pass' 17 bal? C-void with 9, but 2card spade? I can conceive no hand for him good enough to even suggest 5C-X-2 is cheap. I've already sky-rocketed over my hands value. I'm done.!