rbforster

"Encrypted" signals are a bit like "relay systems" in that they are talked about by in rules, very poorly defined, and used by everyone in ways that are complete "normal" for any bridge player. Many forms of Stayman for example are a relay system per the definition, yet what the ACBL means is not that they want to ban Stayman, but the weird stuff the LOLs don't like at clubs when you play advanced precision. Similarly, it is common to give suit preference later in the hand by discarding your useless cards. If we have competed in a suit and are now defending the hand, we will have 8-9 cards in our suit between us. Furthermore, we are likely to have lead them and gotten all our tricks in that suit early on until declarer's hand is exhausted and he can trump in. In this fairly common case, the remaining cards in our suit are held entirely by our side, so when partner makes a discard in our suit only we know whether a discard was high, middle, or low from looking at the cards in our hand. This is encrypted and yet it is just "standard bridge defense". The rules against encrypted signals are only used to inhibit innovation in defense, not to prevent the experts from playing the way they presently do.

I never developed a fully fleshed out system over 1♦-X, but having worked hard on the 1M-X version, the "lost" XX hands pass and then double. If 3 hands have near opening values (in the case of a normal XX responder), you can bet 4th hand isn't sitting for the X and is taking it out to some cheap suit since they're nearly broke. So you've essentially got a situation where the opps are in a forcing auction, so you can safely pass and plan on bidding again later. This opens up a lot of options, systems-wise, for how to treat strongish hands by repsonder.

Yes, I played precision with light openers. The one level range was 10-15 points, including distribution. 9 counts were included about 1/2 the time, such as a 6 card suit or 5/4, especially with points in their suits. 8 counts were rare but allowed for very shapely hands. We did pre-alert light openings. As for results, well, you bid a lot. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Probably more good than bad, especially NV. The opponents had to use their less precise interference methods a lot more, and got fewer uncontested auctions. There were a bunch of subtle inferences like when you could psych in 3rd seat if you were really weak since they must have game on if partner has at most a bad 9 count. Pass outs almost always meant the opponents made a mistake.

In the ABCL, you can open 2♣ on any hand with 3+ clubs and any strength. If weak and wide ranging, there are restrictions on conventions after the opening bid.

I think we will see the most differences for shapes that resolve cheaply (3♦) since there's the most space for varied methods, so I think it's best to use common shapes for responder (5431, 5332 or 6322, maybe 4441 or 5521) rather than rare ones. I would say we probably have done enough with this opener, but maybe I'm just hoping for different hands to see how different people's judgment works under different circumstances. No strong opinion really. I do like seeing maybe 2-3 different responders hands with the exact same shape and different honors/values. I think that gives a good comparison for how methods might work with very similar starting information, as well as helping to control for unconscious "resulting" bias.

You're right of course. The problem I was running into in the first set of hands had to do with holding no honors as relay asker, combined with counted-but-unscaanned singletons that might have been honors. Then it wasn't possible to figure out if there was a singleton honor, or more honors opposite the empty suit.

Another observation is that on misfit hands, a lot more strength is needed for a good NT slam than I thought. My rule of thumb with QPs was that 20 was always worth trying for slam, and 19 (or rarely 18) were worth considering in a suit when you had favorable distribution / no wastage like Axx vs stiff. I think my intuition is decent on suits, but for balanced or misfits in NT, maybe I need to up my standards or consider adding ways to inquire about extra strength from partner (like jacks). I remember TOSR had several routes to 4N that were various types of quant invites based on 2 point NT ranges (like direct 4N when 3N was available, 4♦ end signal and then 4N, ask for QPs then 4N, etc). In some sense, this might be sample bias, since all these hands have opener with 12 QPs. With my rules that 20 QPs combined should investigate slam and 8 QPs by responder will respect a signoff, I need to ask with 12 but that's my minimum to ask. So maybe this is why I end up getting uncomfortable at the 5 level sometimes when I wanted to just be in game. I count my stiff Qs as 1. Maybe I shouldn't?

This appears to be a different hand 7 than the other thread. Might want to change the title. 3♥-4♣ QP, 8 4♦-4♠ 1-2 diamonds, no club (can't stop in 4N, might as well ask) 4N-5♥ exactly 1 spade, 2 diamonds (so given hand, or K♥ and A/KQ♦) 5N -P A lot better with the K or J♥ than without.

Another observation is that my methods are pretty bad at inferring the presence or absence of stiff honors (except to the point QP count requires them to add up, which is rare). I guess it only matters when you've got a strong suit opposite a stiff, which might play meaningfully better with a stiff honor as filler. Proabably too rare to justify changing, but it might be an argument for a modified QP counting rule - I.e. count all honors, or don't count stiff honors, or only count stiff A (or AK not Q), etc.

Ah, that's another difference I guess. I insist on a decent 8 HCP, just having 5 QPs alone isn't enough for a GF for me. Soft 8 counts and weaker will bid semi positive responses barring some freak shape with good fillers.

3♥-3♠ QP ask, 6 or less (GF values) 3N-P (somewhat lucky in my system to be wrong sided so North has diamonds guarded)

3♥-3♠ QP ask, 6 or less (GF values) 4♠-P picked spades since in my system South would be declaring spades but not hearts

I thought we'd need a thread to discuss what we think we've learned from this practice. Perhaps I will also summarize the results after a while and everyone who cares has bid. My first observation is that it sucks to hold a small doubleton as relayer, whether or not you're asking with QPs or RKC. Perhaps QP is slightly better, since with a total QPs you might be able to infer a little about the holding (but A vs KQ will never be possible, and often matters). Maybe this means you should try to reverse relay on such hands if that's possible in your system, or maybe its worth thinking about some sort of suit-exclusion method.

3♥-4♣ QP ask; 8 4♦-5♦ 2 diamonds, 1 club, 1-2 spades (hand is known) 5N-P All this black suit duplication in our short suits looks pretty bad for slam. We'd need to bring in diamonds for 1 loser, and that seems quite ambitious. Even in 5N I'm not that happy, but at least I'll be playing in my methods (with NT first bid at the 5 level, it turns out). Edit: interesting you guys are all so pessimistic with 20 QPs combined. That's just off an AQ or KK.

Is that really a GF response? You and Richard both playing in spades?!

Why can't the 2 keys be AS and KH? With a minor Q or two, he'll still have GF values without the top two diamonds. Also, I assume you're playing 6H not 6S... Those 3-1 trump holdings are hard enough for slam without missing the A ;).

3♠-4♦ RKC ♥; 2 no Q 4♠-5♣ diamond ask; AK or Q only (slam is good vs the former, hopeless against the latter; risky but seems worth a try based on suit lengths) 5♦-5N club ask, Q (or AK) (without the Q♣, we could still wimp out in 5♥, but probably wouldn't) 6♣-6♥ spade ask, nothing P I admit this may not be a convincing auction, since it sucks not to be able to determine the diamond holding with no honors to help interpret the response. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems somehow more likely partner will have his values in his long suits rather than stiff AS and only Qxxx in diamonds. Amusingly, if partner had the A♠ and missing only the K♥, you could swing for 7 if you need it, especially since the likely trump lead (or not) could very well give up the trump position. you would be losing only to Kx offside or both 3-0 breaks (play for stiff K if not lead), a 52% grand.

3♥-4♣ QP ask; 8 4♦-4N 1-2 spades, 1-2 diamonds, nothing in clubs 5♣-5♦ only 1 spade (already knew) 5♥-6♣ 2 diamonds, J spade, no J diamonds (so either given hand, or K♥ KQ♦) 6♠

Go ahead and post yours. I've already seen several differences in style and also system with hrothgars and we've only done 5 hands.

...3♦ 5143 GF 3♥-4♦ QP; 9 4♥-4N 1-2♠, AKQ♦ (can't be none) (this shows the given hand, up to jacks) 6♠

...3♦ 5134 GF 3♥-4♣ QP ask; 8 (pretty much sure of slam, just finding out more...) 4♦-4♠ DCB; 1-2♠, no clubs 4N-5♦ 1-2♦, only 1 spade (so KH+Axx/KQx♦, or AKD) 5♥-5N (clubs not scanned) 2♦, no J♠ 6♠

This is going to be pretty similar to what I'm doing, up to a few small tweaks / preferences I use. For example, my first step after QPs is <=6 (we GF based on HCP and shape, not requiring strictly 6 QPs for a positive). Also, I count QPs for singleton honors, don't scan singleton suits, and don't scan suits in the 2nd pass when they showed 0/3 AKQs in the first pass.

...3♦ 4351 GF 3♥ - 3N QP ask; 7 (don't like RKC here without a big trump fit) 4♣-4♥ denial ask; 1-2♦, no spades (5 QP missing, so missing A♠ and either both Q♣♦ or just K♦) P It might seem pessimistic to give up here, but asking for more info with 4♠ won't help - the answer will be 5♦ for sure, showing 1-2♥, 2♦, only 1♥ (since spades not scanned til 3rd round since none), and now we can't even stop in 5♥ since that's the next step to keep asking. So picking between game or slam, with only 19 QPs and no great fits / side suits, I took the low road. Note: I differ from hrothgars methods in that I count singletons for QPs (but just don't scan those suits), so I couldn't be sure of the K♦.

1♣-1♥ spades usually GF 1♠-2♦ D>S GF 2♥-2♠ short H 2N-3♦ 4153 shape 3♥-3N QP ask; 7 P 19 combined QPs isnt out of the question for slam, but with no fit and no extra fillers (just one jack and ten), pushing on seems ambitious.

Abstain - my methods would not end up in a relay auction on this set of hands. Generally a specific 5431 shape with GF values would be shown with 3♦, which then might proceed: 3♠ - 4♦ RKC ♥ (don't like QPs with an open side suit); 2 no Q 4♠ - 5♥ spade suit control ask; no AKQ (so A♦ / k♥) P Partner must have something more than just his two key cards for a GF, but throw in a major suit Jack or two and slams still bad with a likely diamond and spade loser. Yes, he could also have the K♦, but we're too high to tell.