Agree. I think 3D would be a overbid opposite an unpassed hand, as well. This is a problem you face when you overcall at the one level with real crap (as I do all the time). Your *minimum* range becomes wide. Wayne, I'm thinking your thought process may have gone something like "I would have overcalled with a king less than what I have, I can't just bid 2S". Oh, yes you can :) Just because you overcall on real crap (good and common practice, IMO), doesn't make the present hand any better. Peter