zhasbeen

I'll go for 3 hearts; better than double actually

Start by ruling out a game forcing bid when you don't have game-forcing values. How about a cooperative double? Fwiw, this was a general rant about GIB and this hand was just most recent aggravation. It is almost as if he was programmed to be as difficult a partner has possible. He usually won't lead your suit, even when you double it after has been cue bid. If you try to compete he bids one more, or even jumps to slam. On defense he likes "second hand high" and takes joy in swallowing up your stiff king with his ace. Responding to takeout doubles is also problematic. When you double a major for takeout he will often respond in a longer minor when holding 4 or 5 of other major. The list goes on and on. These are all repeaters rather than one-time occurrences.

This is one of GIB’s favorites, designed to make life as difficult as possible for partner. As is often the case in these situations, you are forced to the 4-level. This is just one example of hundreds of GIB problems, that we either put up with or stop playing. Yet BBO hangs onto this old relic that obviously cannot be fixed, even though there are better robots out there. I’m still finding more pros than cons for playing in the tournaments (ACBL individual only), but it sure isn’t GIB that keeps me coming back. “He” takes some of the enjoyment out of the game, and I’m sure that I’m not the only player who feels that way. If GIB could be fixed I’d be all for keeping it, but obviously it can’t. I don’t doubt that there have been “upgrades”, but if so they haven’t done much good. Sometimes I wonder if the fixes don’t create new problems. I don’t notice any improvement since I started playing here a year ago, and I have a large sample to base my findings on (more than 2000 robot individual tournaments). I’m more interested in seeing improvements rather than the reasons why all the bugs and other glitches continue to exist. Most companies that take their customers for granted eventually fall on hard times http://tinyurl.com/yalyc5ga [hv=pc=n&s=st32ht92daq62caq7&w=sk8ha54dkt43c8543&n=sa74hkj873dj8cj62&e=sqj965hq6d975ckt9&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp1h1sd2s3sp4hppp]399|300[/hv]

What are differences between basic and advanced robots? I'm particularly interested in ACBL sanctioned individual with 3 robots and 1 human at each table. Do the daily tournaments use the same robots as NABC 3-day tournaments?

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Don't know if he gets it, but from my experience you will come out ahead a clear majority of the time by playing it. However, it's a top and bottom play. Most of the field will ignore it, so you will get a near bottom when it fails, but more tops than bottoms by going with the odds.

As far as I can tell this problem either can't be fixed, or will NOT be fixed. Without exaggeration I've seen more than 100 sequences like this one. I call it the "5-2 magnet". We need a new Robot!!

Hand 1 - my thinking: I was about as light as I could be for reverse but I had choice of that, rebidding 2C, or opening 1D and rebidding 2C. Take your pick. I’ve tried the latter several times and it usually turns out bad. The reverse seemed like lesser of evils to me and it shows longer clubs than diamonds, typically played as 1-round force rather than GF. I realize that the definition with 2S bid says “forcing to 3NT” but I’ve learned to take that definition with a large grain of salt. I like pass of 2S more than the 3H call with only 3. The 2S call is the real stinker, imo. My 2NT rebid says that I have at most 2S and a strong implication that I have at least 2 hearts with a useful honor. I would have bid diamonds again with a 5th one, so probably 1-3 or 2-2 in majors. Hand 2 - The note I made with this link says “cruel and unusual punishment” in reference to what GIB did to me for opening 1NT with 18 hcp. This hand was a setup made to punish people like me, he-he… Hand 3 - KQ is normally good, if not great, support for a major that has been rebid—even by GIB. As it was, I did make 4. GIB’s ignoring hearts was horrendous bidding nonetheless One thing about playing with GIB and these tournaments in general, is that it gives you lots of interesting hands to think about and play. Great practice if you are able to put the competitive aspect out of your mind.

I can’t speak for everyone, but I haven’t noticed any improvement in GIB’s overall play since I started in August of 2017. I have played only tournaments with 3 GIB’s and 1 human at each table, so my sample doesn’t include the other forms of play that BBO offers. Of those,more than 90% have been the ACBL sanctioned 12-board matches. The 1065 matchpoint games (tournaments) I’ve played have averaged 29 tables. Average tables for 335 IMP games has been 22. I also keep a blizzard of other stats. My objective when I started this thread is pretty much described in the heading. Venting of some frustrations has been a byproduct. I don’t consider myself to be a BBO basher or a chronic complainer. When I realized that I was moving in that direction I stopped posting. I’d much rather play than complain, and have. However, I believe that BBO is making a mistake by continuing to go with GIB for the indefinite future, unless there is more proof that the problems can be fixed than what most of us have seen so far. I am aware that there is no easy solution, and replacing all the GIBs would not be cheap. It might not even be possible, but keeping an open mind to change would be a start. Maybe it could be done more gradually than all it once. If BBO actually believes that GIB can be fixed, don’t keep us in the dark about what the next upgrade is going to correct, and give us a reasonable approximation of when. I’m all for fixing up ol’ GIB if I can see noticeable improvement in some of his more serious flaws. In addition to fixing the wild jumps to slam, here’s another recurring problem hand type. It would be an understatement to say that GIB does not handle two-suiters well. A robot can not claim to play bridge and bid this way. Anything that calls itself an upgrade has to correct these 2 problems, imo. More accurate definitions would be right up there. http://tinyurl.com/ya4akhbv http://tinyurl.com/y7h7rjes http://tinyurl.com/yb52y5fw I’d much rather find something to cheer about than complain

The key word I used to start off my post was “noticeable”. If GIB has improved I’m not seeing it and I’ve played more than 1900 tournaments since mid-August of last year. “There have been nearly 40 I think upgrades in those years, with several thousand problems worked on or fixed” I have no doubt that you have been trying but it looks to me like you have an impossible job in trying to fix GIB. Despite all those upgrades and fixes GIB continues to make the same serious errors plus an occasional new one, and there doesn’t seem to be an end to them in sight. “The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users…” After my try at coming to the forums I concluded that I had a choice of quitting BBO or accepting the situation as is and continuing to play. I chose the latter. I wouldn’t assume for a minute that most users are happy with GIB just because they keep playing. I'm a good example. I suspect that most players put up with “him” to play hands, compete with other humans, win masterpoints, and have some interesting deals to talk about with various offline partners. I think you’d be hard pressed to find many players who have entered more than a handful of BBO tournaments that are satisfied with GIB. I’m sure I haven’t played my last BBO robot tournament, but I’m just as sure I’ll be playing considerably less in the days and months to come. Accepting the situation “as is” becomes considerably more difficult when you tack on “with little hope of improvement”. You can call all this complaining or whatever you want, but this is my take.

Yes

Some similarity to 3NT opening on GIB convention card stating 25-27 Hcp. When I picked up a balanced 25-27 and opened 3NT GIB passed. Those who opened 2C and rebid 2NT showing 22-24 were taken to the cold slam by GIB.

Helene, I remember you as one of the more knowledgeable posters before I gave up on the forums. However, I disagree with you on this one. Nothing could justify GIB’s leap to 7. Even if I held 22 hcp the odds would be in favor of us being off an ace. You just don’t bid a grand slam on a wild guess (unless you are GIB). My 3H rebid says my suit is good enough to play game opposite a void, which it is. This hand will make game opposite a yarbrough most of the time. With an outside ace and 4-card suit headed by the KQ it is more than a strong preempt, and plenty good enough for a strong 2 bid. Would you ever want to risk having the deal passed out while holding this hand? Don’t say it... In effect, Jdonn’s answer to my question said, “This is as good as it gets. Take it or leave it.” I’ll give him credit for an honest answer

Jdonn, I appreciate your response, and I wish I could believe that GIB can be fixed. However, I’m not sure that even you believe it. You do your job as best as you can with what you have to work with, which unfortunately is outdated equipment. The problems that GIB has are widespread and serious, yet I see no improvement since I played my first tournament in August of last year. That was 1900 tournaments ago, probably more than most members play in 5-10 years. I’ve been hoping there were be improvements but I’m not seeing any. Problems like the one I just reported have been happening since I started. If a Robot can’t be programmed to refrain from leaping to slams that can opponents can set by cashing their ace(s), then how can they program it to do anything? This is just one error type of dozens that have been happening for months, and maybe even years. Just look at this thread. For the most part it is just a place for players to vent their frustrations with little, if any hope of improvements. “While some problems are very frustrating, the users should never expect perfection…” Indeed they are frustrating, but I have never expected anything close to perfection. I’d settle for a whole lot less than what I’ve heard many others ask for, but the stuff that GIB does or doesn’t do borders on unacceptable. The last review I read for bridge-playing robots had GIB rated 4th out of 5 worth even considering. I think the article was dated 2011 and here we are in 2018 with no noticeable improvements in GIB. So far as I know BBO is the #1 web site for playing bridge online but it’s not hard to imagine them dropping by the wayside if they continue to stand pat with GIB. “Why do you keep playing?” one might ask. First of all, my enthusiasm for bridge is possibly more than ever. I’m retired now and have plenty of time to play, which was not the case during my 20 year break from the game that ended last year. Playing in the BBO tournaments has enabled me to play tons of hands in a relatively short time. Most of the hands are challenging with various tricks and traps to think about. You also get to see video replays of all the boards you played, plus the traveler and links to how the other players bid and played them. Then there’s the excitement of competing against the other players who played the same hands with the same 3 robots (all GIBS). With all that, there are days when I plan to play 5-6 tournaments but end up walking away after 1 or 2. I’m playing 36% fewer this than last year and the trend has been heading down. Results haven’t been the catalyst either. My average matchpoint scores are fraction of a pct better than last year, and I doubt having vastly improved robots would result in any improvement in that regard. However, it would make for a more enjoyable game if we had better robot partners.

This is 2nd time in past week that this has happened, and BBO has been aware of this problem for months that I know of. Sadly, it is only one of dozens of recurring GIB disasters that you ask your customers to put up with. They come in all sizes and shapes. Obviously they cannot be fixed, yet BBO continues to keep going with this out dated hardware. This is a known problem, yet nothing has been done. How many times have we seen GIB blast to small slam off 2 aces or a grand slam off an ace? How many customers will put up with these disasters more than 2-3 times before hitting the door? http://tinyurl.com/ybczw4ou [hv=pc=n&s=sahakj87652dkq64c&w=s864h93dt9732cq52&n=skqt2ht4d5cajt964&e=sj9753hqdaj8ck873&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=2cp2dp3hp3sp4hp7hppp]399|300[/hv]

BBO MUST get a new robot or prepare to find itself going the way of OkBridge. Talking about all the fixes, bug reports, is a waste of time. I have concluded a long time ago that GIB can not be fixed, or at least not to the point that it can to play like you'd expect from a 21st century product. I say this as someone who has probably played more robot tournaments than since my first in Aug 2017 than 90% of BBO customers. I have also done very well from a competitive standpoint, but I am getting closer and closer of breaking my BBO habit. The only thing that has kept me going the last couple few months has been getting involved in the ACBL yearly masterpoint race, but I'm now in process of letting it go. The frustration of playing with GIB has worn me down to the point where it's not worth it. I don't even want to tell you how much I've spent. Hear that BBO? Support ignored my last complaint. I'm tired of the frequency of incorrect definitions. I'm tired of being left in 4-2 or 5-1 fit when GIB doesn't know what to do. I'm tired of GIB blasting to slam off 2 aces. I'm tired of having GB bidding one 5-card suit 2 or 3 times while ignoring a 2nd 5-card suit. I'm tired of having to make a choice of selling out to opponents and having GIB leap to slam or game if I don't. I'm tired of BBO doing nothing about it. The list goes on and on. Despite all our complaints (with 100's, if not thousands of examples) I don't see GIB as being one bit better than it was 8 months ago when I started. The forums are just a place for customers to vent their frustrations while the moderators keep trying to make excuses for GIB or have them believe that it can somehow be fixed. I probably have not played my last game, but it is a virtual certainty that it will only be a small fraction I what I have been. For the most part BBO has a lot to like, but that big elephant in the living room cancels out a large percentage of it.

This is not the firt time GIB has made a “limit” raise with an opening hand. However, I thought it would be a stretch to go with this one. If this doesn’t teach me then nothing will. GIB is a very difficult partner. http://tinyurl.com/y88ks73d [hv=pc=n&s=sk74hajt97d542ca4&w=st963h83dqj83ckj7&n=saqhq6542da96ct86&e=sj852hkdkt7cq9532&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1hp3hppp]399|300[/hv]

On the GIB convention card it says “3NT 25 to 27”. The system notes don’t say what 2C-P-2D-P-3NT is. My first experience opening 3NT left me playing it there, while those who opened 2C and rebid 2NT reached a cold slam. It doesn’t seem fair, but that’s GIB. The only thing I see that might have worked would be raising 2D response to 3 (or possibly rebidding 2NT that shows only 22-24 HCP!) Here’s link to system notes. There’s another link at top of page that will take you to convention card. http://www.bridgebase.com/doc/gib_system_notes.php GIB is a very difficult partner, no doubt about it.

" Totally clear where I come from; 100% forcing..."New suit at the three level by an unpassed responder". In what world other than GIB World would that not be forcing?

Go to this link http://www.bridgebase.com/doc/gib_system_notes.php Then select "Click here to see GIB's convention card" at top of page. See "Other" in red on bottom line of "MINOR OPENING" section of the card. You will see 2C resp to 1D opening is not game forcing. The definition explanations that you will see when you run your cursor over the different calls during the auction are often wrong. This is especially true of the "forcing to 3NT" that you'll see even when the bid was made by a passed hand. I would say that you are better often reading the explanations than not, but be prepared for them to be partially wrong or completely wrong for some sequences. The best you can do is keep a copy of the GIB card at your side, read the definitions when they are available, and play lots of robot tournaments to gain experience. Even then you will be hard pressed to make it thorough a match without at least one board being adversely affect by a GIB action.

The 3D is not forcing because north was a passed hand. However, I think that south's hand was much too good for a simple raise. After the 2D response south should make sure you reach game (at least). That being said, I would not have passed 3D with north hand, even with a void in partner's first bid suit. You are looking at an ace, 6 trump, and 2nd 5-card suit! I like 3S cue bid after south's raise to 3D. That should insure that reach at least 5D. Will see what the experts say.

50-50 chance that west holds the missing ace. Throw in an extra 25% for finding the spade when east has it.

I don't know if I could say several, but at least a few times GIB has left me in a 5-1 fit. I happened to have 6 spades on this hand but my bid didn't promise it. How about that 3H call along the way. http://tinyurl.com/ybqp3bvc [hv=pc=n&s=saq9875h32dcaqt53&n=s4ha954dk8542ckj2&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=2dpp2sp3hp4cp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

Hi Stephen-good to see you are still coming around. I saw a couple of your Monterey results--nice