euclidz

Watching play on a couple of occasions I have seen a response of 2NT over a 1 suit opening with responder holding 10-12hcp when they could have bid 2 of a suit at the 2 level. Playing just now (Acol 4cm's) partner opened 1♠ . . I had 3,3,3,4 with 3♠ and responded 2NT (i.e. re-bid the spades showing 5+ spades or go to 3NT). Partner passed explaining that she presumed I had just 10-12hcp. I presume this System/Convention has a name? And, I presume that someone is going to tell me it is Acol (the other Acol?)

It was raining outside and with the Acol Club empty I thought I'd watch the 'experts' playing in the 'Main' Club. The bidding went 1♦ 1♥ 2♦ 2♥ 3♦ 3♥ 4♦ 5♦. . of course it went off and the abuse commenced, in Turkish, albeit that one had a Spanish flag and it continued for the next 3 or 4 hands (I put it through an on-line translator (it was raining outside)) and it went along the lines of . ."you call yourself a teacher, I hope it's not Bridge you're teaching, IDIOT" Eventually one of the 'Experts' left the table and then a kibitzer with a British flag appeared hurling abuse in capitals (in broken English) at Expert 2. Expert 2 kept on through several new partners as the kibitzers repeated "BOOT BOOT 'name'" and other abuse over and over. I left for to get a cup of tea and the headache tablets! I had wondered why people who don't play Acol played in the Acol room - I think I may have the answer!

I am new to this site, I would like to enjoy my Bridge and learn in a stress free environment. Bridge players (generally) are not renowned for their patience and tolerance; in my short time in BBO I have witnessed many instances of 'teddies being thrown out of prams.' If it is the case, as you, that I can presume that players in the Acol Club with profiles stating (e.g.) StNT and 1Club forcing, are in fact playing bog standard basic Acol then that's fine. Can I mention your name when she/he bites my head off for opening with a WkNT?

1♣ Forcing (what system is it?) I must have been playing with the others 20% for the last 10 years!

In the UK Gerber (unless it is an opening bid) (and most everything else above 3NT) is not alerted. For the same reasons given above . . . partners bids 4C (is that Gerber or an invitation to 5C, I'll alert it so that partner will know I've taken it as Gerber) https://www.ebu.co.uk/documents/laws-and-ethics/convention-cards/announcements-table.pdf

15-17pts int 1 club forcing weak 2s dhs The above is on the profile card of a person playing in the Acol Club. Strong NT is not standard Acol . . . 1 Club forcing, what's that, what system is that?

All players in our Indi Tourneys must use the Acol bidding system : 1.Unless a pair (when first arriving at a table) agrees anything different or additional, they will play the whole of the following basic system: Interesting. . . . depends how that is read . . . It could be read as . . 1. "Pairs must play Acol or any other system as long as a pair agrees to play another system". OR 2. "You must play standard basic Acol unless pairs agree to play Acol with variants" e.g. Benji Except that 1 above would be nonsensical as there is no point in saying you must play Acol if it is followed by 'unless you don't want to'.

In fact, I don't know what the rules are or if there are any rules; does the Acol Club have any rules? It does seem a little odd that someone would form a 'Club' and call it the 'Acol' Club where it is not necessary to play Acol! Why, when there is a 'Main' Bridge club and many other 'Clubs' playing many other systems (e.g.)SAYC would anyone who plays SAYC want to slot themselves amongst a group playing Acol?

I would argue that the reason that the law makers require certain things be alerted is because they require that the game is played with full disclosure AND that when there is a situation whereby a call or play is presumed to be 'x' because that is the norm within that system where there is a partnership agreement that it means 'y' it should be alerted. See below . . White Book 2014 Players 10 July 2014 1.3.1. A player must alert any inferences drawn from partnership experience or practice which have a potentially unexpected meaning. A call with an alertable meaning arising from an implicit understanding must be alerted. A player who is not sure whether or not a call made is alertable should alert it. If there is no partnership understanding about the meaning of the call, the player should say so rather than say how is going to treat it.

Could it not be argued that Acol is a system of 4cm's i.e. it is a system that presumes that a player opening 1♥ or 1♠ will hold a minimum of 4 cards in that suit and that any partnership playing Acol who have agreed that they will not open 1 of a major with less than 5 cards in that suit (i.e. they play 5cm's) must alert it?

I recognise, understand and accept all that's been said here all of which matches my (Acol) Bridge life experience i.e. that many people playing Acol are playing with slightly different values yet all believe that they are playing 'standard' Acol. For example I played in an interclub comp some years back where I was drawn with another player and during the game it became evident that this person played 2 over 1 with 8hcp and a 5 card suit and she insisted that this was standard Acol and that she had been playing that for 10 years. (Note: I suggest that an Acol 2 over 1 response e.g. 1♠ 2♦ promises a minimum of 10hcp with a minimum 4 card suit). So yes, I accept that there discrepancies on what the values are for calls in standard Acol but there must be a boundary beyond which it is not i.e. there must be something(s) which are so fundamental to Acol and any other system which must be else you are can't be said to be playing that system. For example I would argue that if you are playing a StNT you cannot describe the system you play as Acol. Why is it important? I believe that the EBU rules require anything that is a partnership agreement should be alerted i.e. if your are playing with values that are outside the range of standard Acol it should be alerted. If that is correct there must be something that defines what is and what is not standard Acol. I also note that BBO has an 'Acol' Club and that the rules of that Club are that everyone playing there must play Acol which implies that Acol must be definable?

When is Acol not Acol? I play Acol. I know there are many other systems and I am vaguely aware of the defining features of Standard American (SAYC). I would describe the defining features of Acol as 4cm and WkNT and the defining features of SAYC as 5cm and StNT. Can you play 5cm and StNT and say that you are playing Acol?

Every time a new rule comes in, it is an irritant for a while them it becomes second nature, when partner now opens 1NT my mouth moves uttering the appropriate announcement and I don't even know I've said it. What does irritate me is the requirement to leave the board on the table throughout the game and having to negotiate around it as an obstacle and what REALLY irritates me is that person who, when it is taken away, insists it be returned to the table just because they can.

Thanks for the helpful replies. I've looked RONF which seems simple enough up and although the NF is a bit confusing as it seems that in most of the stuff I've read it is forcing. When I posted this question I expected to be told that someone had come up with a convention or some form of cue bid asking the appropriate question but perhaps not?

We play weak 2s including diamonds and we play Ogust. I got into trouble a couple of times last night when partner opened 2 diamonds and I had a 17hcp and then 19hcp and a decent 5cm. On both occasions 3NT went off and 4H/S made. Of course I we can come to a partnership agreement e.g. . . . "if I jump to 3H/S over your 2D if you have support for that suit go to 4 else go to 3NT". Is that it or is there a better way to find a fit?

SKILL LEVELS When I registered on this site I created a ‘profile’ which has an option to choose a skill level which is helpful when playing with strangers. The question is – what does that skill category mean? Here is my view on what it means on this site . . . . NOVICE / BEGINNER 1. A person new to the game who knows the fundamentals of the game, capable of partaking at a basic level using basic bidding tools, who plays the cards by simply taking winning tricks off the top. OR 2. A person who has been playing for many years but, incapable of abstract thought, is unable understand the structure of the game and how it fits together. INTERMEDIATE 1. A person who has several years of experience playing at Club level, who understands how the game fits together, who is capable of using moderately sophisticated bidding tools and conventions, who is able to assess how the shape of a hand adds to it’s strength and who understands the fundamentals of where extra tricks are made. OR 2. A Novice who believes that promotion from Novice to Intermediate comes automatically after clocking up 1,000+ appearances on BBO. OR 3. An Advanced player whose humility and modestly precludes him from styling himself as ‘Advanced’. ADVANCED 1. A person with many years of experience playing at Club and Regional level, who understands the mathematics of how the game fits together, who is capable of using sophisticated bidding tools, who can accurately assess how the shape of a hand adds to it’s strength and who understands the mathematical statistical probability of who holds what card and whether it is or is not likely to fall to a play of x x. OR 2. An intermediate player who having played with and against other Intermediate players who fall into category 2 above, has formed the view that he is better than that and if they are ‘intermediate’ he must be ‘advanced’. OR 3. An Expert player whose humility and modestly precludes him from styling himself as ‘Expert’. EXPERT 1. A person with many years of experience playing at Regional and National level, who is capable of player at that level in the most commonly used systems, who understands the mathematics of how the game fits together, who is capable of using all and even the most obscure sophisticated bidding tools and conventions, who can accurately assess how the shape of a hand adds to it’s strength, who understands the mathematical statistical probability of who holds what card and whether it will fall. Experts could (and some do) earn a living from playing and teaching Bridge. 2. Advanced players who live alone, who have nothing in their lives outside of Bridge (the highlight of their social life is the Bridge Club Christmas party) who are lacking self esteem and who, in their quest to gain a false and pathetic sense of self worth, spend their days seeking out and attacking normal players who have the temerity to style themselves anything other than Novice. They try to earn money from playing and teaching Bridge but are soon exposed as being ‘odd’. 3. Intermediate Players who live alone (or in a different part of the house) who have nothing in their lives outside of Bridge, who crave the acquaintance and reassurance of Expert players and live in fear of exposed as a charlatan and having their classification downgraded to Intermediate. These people have tried to earn money from playing or teaching Bridge and live in fear of arrest and a conviction for obtaining money on false pretences (fraud). WORLD CLASS 1. These are Expert players who have competed for their country in international events. They know everything and contemplate new things. They have written books. 2. Expert players from category 2 above who have styled themselves ‘World Class’ and who hang onto the title by sheer aggression.

Thank you for answering my question. I would like to further pursue the question hopefully without the discourteous, arrogant condescending suggestion that this is a question of or posed by a novice. It seems to me that opening the bidding holding 10hcp it is statistically likely that partner will have 10hcp . . with a partnership holding of 20hcp and an 8 card suit opener should expect that his partnership holds the stronger hand and so opener’s ‘pre-emptive’ bid of 4C is more likely to hinder/disrupt his own partnership bidding rather than the opposition. What am I failing to see?

Due to my lack of experience or lack of study, opening 4♣ or 4♦ first in hand is not an opening I have ever encountered. Is it standard Acol bidding or a partnership agreement? At the time I took it to be strong i.e. long clubs with an optimistic chance of making 4♣ so I raised to game and it made. Nothing was said my partner but for the benefit of my education I would like to know . . . 1. Is it standard Acol bidding or a partnership agreement? 2. What would be expected to hold with that opening?

BBO (New partner) opened (first in hand) 4C what would you expect him to hold?

Before I study up on 'Upside Down' . . . . previously, looking at options I read about revolving (McKenney) discards which appeared attractive because it offers the opportunity of choosing from two suits to indicate a preference e.g. both a low club and high heart indicates a spade preference that (to me) I can see occasions when that would be useful. I presume I am missing something?

Thanks for all the helpful replies . . . I will look up and study 'Upside Down' which I presume is the opposite of HELD i.e. LEHD?

I have avoided using any form of discard system because I am often forced to discard something I don't want to discard. Playing Bridge on BBO last week I joined a person who immediately left saying she wouldn't play with a partner who didn't play a discard system. So looking at systems for something which is both simple but effective I came across Dodds which seemed to fit the bill. Researching that I found the below paragraph in an article on discards . . . A little used system is that of Dodds discards . . . . . This is little used because there is quite a high frequency of hands where you have no useful discard and you end up misleading partner. That is exactly NOT what I am looking for but I don't see that in Dodds. What do we think?