ok i need to come clean. i was the one bid_em_up helped to post this (i was on my alternate account) my bid at the table was 4D, which on hindsight, is bad, especially on that diamond SQ i bid it with for two reasons: 1. it is (slightly) pre emptive (although won't stop them from bidding 4S, but would force them into a guess, and partner may have some spades that could cause them trouble) 2. i thought game to be unlikely, which is why i did not bid 3C i guess there needs to be some discussion as to what 4D would be at these colours but i bid it as absolutely not an invitation, with invitation, i would bid 3C/H/S and yes, following normal principles, a raise of partner's suit in competition is not strength showing. so 2D/3D would all be weak-medium raises, with 3D being more shapely and weakish still