JustaDummy

Thanks to you and Anthrax. Got that. Very helpful. I see some situations where leading to my ruff from dummy will help, particularly if I have length in that dummy suit and once the trumps have gone I may have winners there (assuming I have entries :blink: ) but apart from that, there is no benefit - and maybe this discussion can move off to a higher plane? Because it makes my brain hurt. :(

Nope. Not at my level. And I already tried to say that. Great. Thanks for that. Really helpful for someone like me who is actually just trying to understand the strength relationships between opening bids and first responses. I'm glad you are here to help. :huh:

I do understand that. But at what point in a novice's development can a novice trust his/her judgment? Surely that is not Novice material, and probably not beginner either. I'd guess that once a player is ready to think that way, they are past the beginner stage. I'll settle for simple rules, so that, as I am developing, I'll enjoy the game and my participation in it. As I improve, over time, I'll hopefully become more comfortable and maybe start to explore the envelope a bit. But for some, it won't happen. My wife will not play Bridge at all because of all this stuff surrounding the game. That is a fact.

So why is it that every "Learn Bridge" source I have ever looked at talks about 13 points (apart from the honour trick system which I only vaguely remember)? Is the "rule of X (decide yourself what value X has)" more modern, or more advanced, or more accurate, or more esoteric? Should everyone playing Bridge adopt this system, since surely the time to start doing that is now, for us N/B types, before we waste any more time on learning useless systems, or is that question more suited to a more advanced forum? Because as far as I can see, all bids depend on hand assessment, and all the guidance about that is phrased in terms of a number which represents hand value. So all the stuff I have read about point count and hand evaluation has to be ignored, since their numbers are wrong, across the range. Is that the case? If not, at which point do I start to ignore the "rule of" and start to segue into HCP/DP/TP stuff? And should I stop looking at Fred's software right now?

This is interesting. I add each card above a length of 4 in any suit as a distribution point to my high card points. So in the OP's hand, I count 10HCP+4DP=14 Total Points, and can open with 13+. Does it make much difference? What's the maths? (I may be a noob in Bridge but I can handle maths OK :D ).

ALERT! ALERT! Novices around!! Some clarification, please, folks? I don’t get that. If I have long trumps how can my doubleton not be an asset? Newbs like me really need to concentrate on the basics, and play with these basics for a while, so that they become a more natural part of my playing before I start looking ahead to graduated modifications to my understanding of Bridge. I’m maxed out during that time. Please try to understand that. If you mean that comment in response to an opening of one of a suit, it seems to completely break the rules of SAYC bidding that I’m struggling to incorporate in my game. With 13 points held by opener, and you have a void and four rags in opener’s suit, an expert might comfortably get game out of it, but I’m pretty sure that nine times out of ten I’d go three down. You’ll really have to fully explain what you mean there. But if it’s above intermediate level, I'm not sure I want to know right now.

I don't think that either is specifically better than the other (at my level…). This probably falls into the realm of partner agreement! I'm learning from Fred's excellent software, and his view is 6-9. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me! :D

Thanks Ben. Great job.

Thanks Mike. I do appreciate your taking the time. I will be posting a question in the novices / beginners forum soon, once it starts to attract more folks like me. I know there is a chicken / egg situation here, but if I post this question now, I fear that there will be too much input from above! My question will be about what other rookies do to improve: what books, videos, etc. they find currently helps them. I know that this will be a very attractive topic for more advanced players to contribute to, but I actually want to know about current learning experiences. It's well known that, in any field, the difficulties and perspectives encountered when starting out are forgotten, or memory of the experience gets modified, once the beginner has moved on substantially. Just hearing someone say, "Yes, I have that problem too, and I'm currently trying this to see if it helps" is very supportive. Hearing someone say "You'll get over that" isn't so good. Current learning strategies include social constructivism, where learners work in groups to solve problems. It adds to the set of learning styles which can be adopted by the learner. Hopefully we'll see some of that happening in N/B. Learning can take place without teaching. So I have to reject your view of my hopes for this new forum as being a polarisation into "learn or socialise".

Er… Is this not a new forum? Where are all these "pages of topics?" :P

I'm delighted by this. Thank you, Admins! I'm assuming that it will take some time for members to realise that this forum is now available. Would a quick notification be out of order? If two-thirds of all members never post in any forum, maybe a quick email might help. Well, maybe not quick, given the size of the task… :blink:

Well, it's fairly moot now. But it depends on what you want from a forum. I personally don't just want somewhere to post questions and get answers. I want a place to discuss stuff among my peers, in a true multi-way conversation, not always a pupil-teacher session. For me, the B/I forum was more the latter than the former. Hopefully the N/B forum will be the reverse!

It is indeed gratifying. But I don't need that, yet. Once I get to the Intermediate level (if I ever do), I'll truly welcome their input. But right now, it's the firehose syndrome. And I'm not able at this stage to do any filtering at all. My back is against the wall as it is. Maybe it's just me, but as one poster said, 67% of all BBO members have never posted anything on any of these forums… I'm maybe beginning to see why.

Yes, they are. I see that happening in most posts here. And I see that the contentions simply serve to confuse me further. I do of course understand your point. But to take your analogy to the extremes that I find here on B/I, you're suggesting that the following exchange in a computing forum is useful to the OP: OP: " I have a Pentium 4 processor with 2 GB memory and an 80GB 7200 RPM HDD but I find that Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 can't render my scenes at anything approaching 15FPS. What can I do to improve this? Responder 1: "Upgrade to FSX." Responder 2: "Install more memory." Responder 3: "What graphics card do you use?" Responder 2 (again): "Ignore Responder 1! Do NOT upgrade to FSX with that machine!" Responder 4: "Go away. You cannot use that software with your hardware." Responder 5: "Your processor is too slow for MSFS. Upgrade your processor to a quad." Responder 6: "Do NOT believe Responder 5! MSFS 2004 is NOT multiple processor savvy. You will just waste money. ---The trouble here is that all the responders (apart from #1) are all partly correct, but none are helpful except for #3, which contains the germ of a solution, but that gets swamped by the other stuff. My point is that there will absolutely be contention regarding poor, and sometimes even good, responses, but I, as a beginner, am simply not equipped to tell the difference. I can do that in a computing forum (you guessed) but not here. Not yet. So, OK. I can go elsewhere, but then I see the gap between Fred's "Learn to Play Bridge" and this starter forum, and I just wonder what the agenda is for BBO.

I belong to many forums, not just this one (and none about bridge apart from this one). I've seen many posts in many of these forums, made in response to a newbie. In most of these forums, typically a newbie will start off with something like, "I hope this isn't a stupid question, but…" and typically someone will come up with the old mantra, "There is no such thing as a stupid question," as if everyone reading the forum is just waiting for a chance to answer the question, with no interest in its level. That just sucks. Sorry. There may not be anything like a stupid question, and I actually believe that to be true, but there absolutely IS such a thing as an inappropriate one. Here is an example. Let's say I'm posting in the Expert forum, and my question is, "I have 13 HCP and a five card Spade suit, with nothing much anywhere else. What should I open with?" (I post in the expert forum because I want the best answer, of course. Bear with me for the moment, I'm exploring principles here.) The question is valid. The forum is not. The question is valid because there is an answer, which the poster seeks. This is the basis of the "no such thing a s stupid question" mantra. The forum is not valid, because everyone apart from the poster knows that everyone in the expert forum (and below) knows the answer to that question as though they were born with that basic info stamped on their diaper (nappy, for Europeans). I don't make this point in order that some folks here might respond with, "Well, that is a completely wrong forum for that question." My point is about the question, and what it means in relation to the mantra "There is no such thing as a stupid question." Just making that clear. So the question is independently valid. But dependently invalidated. On the other hand, no one as far as I have seen, is interested in the validity of any of the answers. That, as far as I can see, is a free-for-all. Some of those responses are good. Some are freaking excellent! I posted earlier that I was astounded that international bridge experts contributed to the B/I forum - that was not an indication of dismay at all, despite some responses. My astonishment was (assuming that beginner questions would prevail) that any top level player could find the time, given the low level of queries that I'd expect of a true beginners forum. which prompted me to think that B/I is really not a beginners' forum at all. This forum is good, but it actually really doesn't help true beginners.

Apologies to Quartic for the unintentional hijack of his thread. It seems to now be running in parallel with one started by wyman: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/51840-for-true-beginners/ and I'm now finding myself torn between responding here or there. @ Admins, is it possible to move relevant posts from here into wyman's thread where they really belong?

See post #10, several questions, answered in #11.

Good for "non-beginner/non-expert"and good for "the mass middle", and good for SAYC and 2/1 aficionados, once a beginner gets to understand the difference there, and why maybe one is better than the other, or not, or even get to know why SAYC might or might not be superior to Precision, and all the stuff that surrounds that kind of debate. Seriously, some of the posters here need to get a grip on the reality that is the world in which the true beginner in BBO is trying to keep his head above water. At what point in any of my posts did I suggest that I'm trying to address the middle ground? Maybe I misunderstand you, but if I do, you really need to help me out here. Did the OP not post with a discussion about the possibility of a complete newbies forum? And if he did, then why are you suggesting that forums satisfying the middle ground are relevant? I'm totally prepared to believe that I know nothing here, but I just need to be shown where I have got this all wrong.

Not sure about that. I'm crucially aware that there are lots of forum members here who would absolutely NOT benefit from answers to questions which I might ask, simply because they are way ahead of me in this environment, and already know the answer - and they also know the answer to the question which comes after the one I have asked, but which I don't know, yet, that I will need to ask. So SOME might benefit, but not ALL. How far down the list do you have to go before the answer becomes unhelpful to the general population? It's about the expectations of the contributors to this forum. Who are those folks who are contributors here? If, as has been postulated, some of you are real experts, playing at a high level in National tournaments, then that's great. But if you are a less-than-beginner like me, I can just so easily get swamped. Remember the fireman's hose. All I need is a carefully applied sip of water, keeping me alive and able to function, but what I seem to get is a drowning here. And I don't actually care if the guy who drowns me is a real expert or just a wannabe. It makes no difference to the outcome.

How does that help the OP's worry about the B/I forum being too "I"? Are you suggesting that there should be separate forums for Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert? I'm sure that this would work. I don't subscribe to the view that some posts would miss their targets at all. As far as I know, any bridge surfer will surf ALL the forums which are appropriate to their assumed level, so placing a discussion in the wrong forum won't hurt them. It might annoy the residents of that forum, of course…

Not "Across the Board" then, like in chess, but "Attribute The Blame?" (I found that in the link which Anthrax provided.) Does that say something about the mindset of some players? As a newbie, I have no idea about the level of play of the contributors to this forum. I don't know who Mikeh is, or who Aguahombre is or anyone else, or what they do for bridge. I don't know what Camrose or the Bermuda Bowl is. Sorry if that is heretical, but it is a fact. I'm actually quite astounded that players of that level spend any time here on this beginners / intermediates forum. Oh, wait, this isn't really a beginners / intermediates forum at all… Which is the essence of my point! I was heartened to read the recent post by wyman: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/51840-for-true-beginners/ where he acknowledges this issue. And I'm too much of a beginner to know if there is such a thing as a Super Muppet Stayman. It is totally plausible. Maybe that's a convention, where, if the contract reaches Small Slam, Miss Piggy appears and beats the oppos about the nether regions with her handbag, screaming, "Hiii-Yah!." I wouldn't know. But then, I'm afraid that wyman's thread went the way of many good ideas, with a leading light here (AFAIK) saying, "I think there is too much emphasis on the difference between intermediate and advanced, we can't define it well, and certainly can't tell people which they are. But I don't let that stop me from posting material I think someone might find useful in the b/i forum, if if that someone is an advanced player or a novice" which as far as I'm concerned completely misses the point. The point is NOT about the difference between I and A, no matter how small that might be, but the difference between R (rookie) and B (beginner), which I assume, since I am a rookie, is huge according to my reading of the posts made in this B/I forum. And if someone in the establishment is unsure about the value of posting in the B/I forum because the subject matter might be A, then that someone has to rethink about what it is to be a beginner. So instead of worrying about whether or not a post is suitable for A or I, we should be getting down to my level, somehow, somewhere. Please. But that won't happen here in B/I! We NEED another forum for Rookies. And then, maybe, the lurkers will come out of the woodwork and start enjoying the discussion around this wonderful game.

You misunderstand me. Firstly, I'm not actually having much fun here, nor do I seek it. This is more serious than just fun. You surely know that. I'm really just trying to learn. But I'm absolutely not prepared to fire off PMs to everyone asking for clarifications, for two reasons: 1. I have too many questions. I really do not believe, despite the rhetoric, that I won't end up as a pariah after asking too many questions - I know that many of my questions can be answered by other resources than this forum, or by other BBO forums, or, fundamentally, by resources outside BBO, but what do I do if this specific forum prompts my questions? And I have MANY. Do you suggest that I fire off PMs in every occasion? 2. I am sure that I am not alone. So if I have a serious question, and decide to try to get an answer directly from a poster via PM, how does the resulting dialogue help any other noob who might just have exactly the same question? PMs are absolutely NOT the answer, although I thank you for the offer. And it was you who stated that addressing basic meanings for noobs like me was probably going to get boring - which is exactly why I have suggested a NOOB forum where nothing is boring, and where folks like you who might try to assist (and I really hope that you would) would accept that the discussion might border on the dreary. But you still have the beginners/intermediates forum, right? If you are really helpful, you will see the sense in that, and you might support the creation of such a forum.

Thanks all. Anthrax, I've bookmarked your link: some interesting bridge stuff in there amongst the BBO chat stuff. (Amongst? Does anyone use that these days? I'm showing my age…) And I'm now all set for two months of lurking… but I can't help thinking that there ought to be a better way. I had hoped that a Rookies forum might have had legs - but maybe, as Aquahombre hinted, that would just be too boring. Not boring for any of us rookies, of course.

OK, I've been encouraged in another post to ask questions (sorry if this bores Aguahombre). Please explain what you mean by "scrambling if you have it" Ignoring your pejorative remarks regarding intelligence (remember that lack of knowledge does not always align with lack of intelligence), are you saying that this 2 spades bid is clearly an invitation to takeout? I sometimes need to have things like this stuck to my forehead with a stapling gun. :P

How is it interesting to a beginner? How can a beginner see the play the same way that someone more experienced can see it? I'm sure that beginners like me can understand the bridge, given a chance and some hints, but is the bridge in this thread not obfuscated by the rhetoric? Sorry to harp on about this, but I really think that this is important. It is certainly important to me. Does the lack of support to my post from other beginners here not tell you something? Maybe there are no real beginners here. Does BBO want that? Don't misunderstand me - I know about the depth of expertise available in these forums, and I am painfully aware of my lack of knowledge here - but is that not the definition of a beginner? I really welcome, and know that I really need, that level of expertise if I am to improve, but throwing me in at the deep end will probably result in yet another drowned rat.