NickRW

FWIW and IMO it is quite borderline. In real life it depends a bit on what partner might include in their 1NT opener - some people are going to have upgraded some 17 counts as being too good for a 1NT opener and are going to want to include such hands in the re-opening 1NT call. Some expect their "20-22" 2NT openers to not include flawed 20 counts. Rightly or wrongly, players playing a weak NT are particularly going to be reluctant to pass 17 counts in the pass out seat. Personally, it being IMP scoring with alluring game bonuses and had I chosen to invite and partner went down in 2 or 3NT and then decided to moan at me - well - I'd be putting a black mark in my book about that partner.

I have mixed feelings: I think these problems are OK for the N/B forum. And by keeping them here you tend to get comments from relatively new players and from relatively expert (or at least experienced) players who are keen to be helpful rather than muddy the debate too much. On the other hand, rightly or wrongly, not many people think of themselves as N/B and you'll probably hit a larger audience in the I/A forum - and a lot of the people there would benefit from considering problems such as these. Part of the problem is the very woolly definition of "intermediate" which covers the majority of players from those with a year or so's experience, but little knowledge up to some quite reasonable players by most people's standards and who are relatively well read on the subject. Nick

You surmised correctly.

The 4 little hearts are how much of a concern? Think about how many the overcaller probably has. How many does that leave for the other two hands? Also what would you have bid minus one of those picture cards? Is your hand a good deal better than that?

One principle that I picked up quite some time ago from a couple of different sources that is relevant especially in the age of lots of take out/responsive/whatever (i.e. not penalty) doubles is to strive to get at least the score you would have got without the interference. Don't worry too much if the penalty would have been better, so long as you can get at least the score you would have got. Of course, the corollary is, when the opponents are pushing you beyond the level which you think you can make, you'd better double (e.g. your side bid to say 4♠ and you did that fully believing it is a probable make, opponents come over the top of you with a 5♦ call that sounds like they are prepared to go down and 5♠ feels like it is too much of a stretch, well, 5♦ two or three off undoubled is likely to be a bad score whatever the form of scoring). (Of course, developing judgement as to when you're likely to not make 5 and how likely it is that opps are really sacrificing as opposed to bidding distributional monsters is quite an art that takes time to develop and none of us always gets it right) In matchpoint terms, an average is good. Play for the top, or at least protect your position as much as you can, when the opponents really have forced you to.

From what little I see of the tournament scene, I think you're probably right. I don't think that extends down to what is happening in clubs and what teachers are peddling - well - not where I am anyway.

I don't think Helene is necessarily defending Acol, merely stating common practice. Certainly there is a slight difference between Acol and SA in this regard. SA with just 2C and 2N as strong opening bids puts the upper limit on a 1x opener a little higher than is the case with Acol. Thus SA players tend to respond with 5 counts or any Ace, Acol players with 6 (and even then some 6hcp 10 loser hands are hardly worth "getting out of bed for"). This makes Acol players able to reverse a point or so lighter than SA. It is a relatively minor difference.

I agree it not the most basic of material. Equally, however, from my observation, there are many "experienced" duplicate players who have *never* learnt this stuff. And one of the reasons that they've never learnt it is because nobody has ever made any sort of concerted effort to teach them simply because it "isn't beginner material". Yet this concerns matters that come up every third board.

I'm not a novice, so I won't vote - but I would have expected these to be forcing provided that South is an unpassed hand. Or, at least, I expect that to be the case in the beginner/novice forum. At the very least I would expect, again in the context of the forum we're in, all sequences to be treated the same as the memory overhead for which ones are/are not forcing gets too much. Nick

I feel your pain. The only things I can say that might be of help are: If you're assuming the people reading should be taught Standard American style, don't worry too much about the Brits etc. with weak NT and 4 card majors. Although there are differences, Acol and SA are fundamentally more similar than SA and 2/1 (IMO). I get the problems thrown up ELC and non forcing changes of suit by an unpassed advancer and so on. But it is precisely because these things are difficult that teachers tend to gloss over them or leave them out entirely. A beginner has to learn somehow and being told they just made a ludicrous overcall by a local "expert" is worse than picking up a sound, basic grounding (even if the methods are not "flavour of the month") In short I am trying to be encouraging and also to suggest a policy "to hell with the consequences" in controversial matters.

I think you're doing a great job Kaitlyn :) Areas less well covered in many basic texts, but vital for beginners to progress, are such things as: 1. When to overcall, double. What does double then bid a suit of your own mean. What does overcall then double mean. 2. Does responding to opener change at all when RHO overcalled or doubled. 3. How do you advance partner's overcall. I realise these are slightly more advanced (and sometimes controversial) topics than you've covered so far - but also areas where beginners grope in the dark as soon as they hit even the most friendly, non-advanced duplicate scene. Nick

Actually that is a good lesson to learn for a weak notrumper in this country! Not everyone plays weak NT. And even some of those that do, have a wide ranging 1NT rebid (about 12-16). And some of those that play weak NT and do not have a wide ranging rebid do it on 15-17, some the more old fashioned 15-16 only. So it is wise to get into the habit of asking about the range of the rebid before selecting your lead. (And if nothing else, it buys some thinking time!)

Well, West can't be 6421 as there were 3 spades in that hand. Assuming 6331 shape for the moment and that we lead low from table to our diamonds and that West let us win this (i.e. not a singleton ♦A), then we could lead from hand to the ♥A. (expecting it to drop the singleton K), then we lead to our diamonds again. Or perhaps, West did bid 3♣ on a 6322 (i.e. the ♥K didn't drop), in which case both red honours are now bare and can be forced out with the lead of low cards from either hand.

Well, I'd be more than happy to overcall 1S over 1D with say AKxxx Jx xx 98xx Last time I read a beginner's book it said overcall at the one level with an 8 count and a decent 5 card suit. So I don't think I'm alone in that. Do you really want to be in 2NT with that as a dummy? Sure you might make it, but if the spades don't break it looks to me, on cursory inspection, like the defence are probably due 1 spade, 3 hearts, 1 diamond and 1 club for 1 down. Edit a few mins later, you could lose another club - the example hand in my head originally had the club jack as well. And, of course, the spades could break or the defence gift you the contract somehow - or at the other end of the spectrum you might lose a fourth heart.

Of those that actually post, quite a high percentage are weak notrumpers. (Over recent years a lot of the US posters have made their way to Bridge Winners).

Perhaps an easier way to for an inexperienced player to think about this is: 1) How many clubs can South see? Yet West has bid to the 5 level in that suit. How many of them does West almost certainly have? How many does North have? 2) How many diamonds can South see? And how many has partner shown with the D2 lead? That leaves how many for West? 3) We've made a "weak with both majors" opening (implying at least 4 of each). Partner supported hearts to the 3 level (but not higher), implying how many? Leaving how many for West? 4) That leaves West with not many spades at all does it!?! How many? 5) Now think about being declarer and how the play is inevitably going to have to proceed depending on different trick 3 leads by South... Then you have the answer.

Many of the more experienced players on this and other forums think that beginners and novices are capable of more than they really are. They forget just how much that they have learnt over the years.

Yes, I wondered why North didn't call higher earlier and whether that meant my estimation of the shape of partner's hand was possibly off target. But we aren't too clear what meaning(s) were implied by the opening, so just maybe more caution was appropriate.

Cute hand

X every day of the week. Not 100% ideal without 4 hearts, but every other choice is (a lot) worse.

Yes. I'd call the director when dummy goes down, 14 cards! Seriously, one hand proves nothing. For example, transfer the ♠JT to the other hand, swapping it for the ♠43. Opener's hand is now something everyone would open without thinking, but prospects haven't improved. Part of this folk lore about the 3 ace hand comes from British fascination with the weak NT. The auction often follows with P-P-P and the hand may not play well. You don't hear about strong no trumpers complaining about four ace hands, or even 3 ace hands and a king - mainly because partner much more frequently has values to move over the strong NT.

I don't disagree. I was trying to be nice. Perhaps I shouldn't have been. Nick

It will work OK for low level NT contracts OK (1, 2 and at a stretch 3NT). For suit contracts and higher level NT contracts, it downgrades aces too much IMO. In general with this whole question, there are evaluation methods for NT and suits and also for higher level versus lower level contracts. They are not the same thing and when picking an opening bid, you can use one method or another or a compromise. All of the choices will work sometimes and none of them will always give the right answer on a particular deal.

It depends on what you have agreed. What would 2NT, 3♣ and 3♦ have meant? What would X have meant? If you have no agreement for these things, then frankly it is potentially ambiguous whether both auctions are invitational or merely "getting in the way".

You have lost the argument and now resort to rudeness.