I didn't mean to say that my two examples were obvious FNJs, they are not without discussion. I meant to say that I play FNJs wherever they are really obvious, like pass 1♥ 1♠ 3♥ 4♣ We are just going to have to disagree on what is a logical (or practical) set of rules for determining whether a call is a FNJ, but it seems very obvious to me why it can make sense to play a FNJ over a 1-level overcall but not a 2-level overcall. The second, on average, shows a much much better hand for me, as I am sure it does for most players. Similarly, my third seat openers are light enough for me to play the 2♠ bid is a FNJ, I would always open 1♠ or 2♠ with any 6421 hand that is strong enough to bid over my given auction. Mostly I just think that having an extra way to raise is not a big deal (if you make this bid a lot, it begins to lose its effectiveness, and if you only make this bid on classical FNJ-looking hands, then it is not frequent enough), but the natural 3♣ bid has no convenient substitute.