At the table I would just bid 4NT, since I don't want a misunderstanding, and this could easily lead to a good 6m or 6N slam. I think you can play two schemes here Transfers: 4♣ = ♦ 4♦ = ♠ 4♥ = minors (or swap 4♦/4♥) 4♠ = ♣ or Natural: 4♣ = ♣ 4♦ = ♦ 4♥ = minors 4♠ = ♠ I'm not sure what's better, but I am sure that stayman is a waste.