junyi_zhu

Sigh, why are you guys are stubborn like this? I am not saying 4S is always a poor bid or good bid. All I want to point out is that your claim is no true if there is no overcall. a slam can be easily bid without much complicate stuff. That's why I called it's a false claim. You can do whatever you like in bidding, but I don't really like claims like even without overcalls, there is no way to find a slam and responder should always jump to 4S the next round. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Ok.. at least you are discussing the hand/auction as it should be discussed now. So you have, in a sense, raised the question, what does a forcing pass show. Interesting, in all your discussion you have said what it doesn't show (the hands I think you can have for the bid, btw), but now shown what you would make a forcing pass with. I will show some more hands, and address your hands for yet a thrid time. I don't need heart fillers. For me, partner was not suggesting hearts as a place to play, and since if we defend against 5♦, partner can not be making lead directing bid since he will be on lead, 4♥ was a blantant slam try. My hand is offensive for a slam try.. I have a doubleton heart, which is perfect if partners hearts are AKx(x) or AQ(x) since the heart hook will be on. I have the spade ace, a card partner can not have counted on because of my raise, and I have the club king, an offensive card with virtually no defensive value at all. My hand is not quite so offensive as to force to slam (if I had a singleton heart, I would bid 6♣, but it is too offensive to give up and bury my head in the sand with a double. I will draw up a variety of hands that I double with below. 3♣ would be a huge underbid. With that hand, I would have bid 2♦, unassuming cue-bid. The avaliabiliyt of this 2♦ cue-bid limits the stregnth of the 3♣ bid.. which makes my hand all the more wonderful for parnters slam try. So the rest of you auction is moot... so let's change it to I bid 2♦ next hand bids 4♦, and partner bids 4♥ and fellow in front of me bids 5♦. Now I have already shown a good hand and a club fit. To pass with this hand (given that I promised at least this much) would generally be a poor option. On the other hand, I have both spade stoppers and partner can not know this, and will be looking at spade losers. Still my hand is all offensive (spade AK probably good for both, but club king is offensive). So with this hand I would still make a forcing pass. So if partner had xx AKQx Dx CAQJxxx he will bid the slam. Well now you have changed horses again, partner can not have that hand if I have the spade AKxx... as there is only one king of spades in the deck. So let's go back to the original hand, if partner has that hand, over the forcing pass, he will carry on. IF he had a related hand, say, S-Qx H-Axxx D-x C-AQJxxx he is not bidding slam opposite forcing pass after 2♦ unassuming cue bid (your second hand) or the three club raise and pass here.. matter of fact, with this hand, he is not even making the 4♥ cue-bid opposite the 3♣ raise, as partner can't have enough stuff for slam. If partner has that hand, he will bid the slam over all forcing passes after the 2♦ cue-bid and 4♥ bid by him, and if he has that hand, he will not even invite slam opposite a 3♣ raise as his partner can not have three of the missing four key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) or he would have made an unassuming cue-bid instead of direct raise. With this hand (with or without the spade queen) he would bid slam if partner bid 2♦ first (not raised). However, now partner still need three of the four missing key cards (spade AK, DA, CK) to make slam. For instance, give partner any two of those cards, slam can't be made, and since partner can't have three... you still don't make the 4♥ bid, you simply bid 5♣. Only opposite the unassuming cue-bid would you make a slam try with this hand. You can play 2♠ if and only if you play 2♠ as not-forcing. I happen not to play that as non-forcing, so for me bidding 2♠ is never an option here. To play 2♠ as non-forcing is, in my opinion inferior. Here is what Robson/Segal say about auction after partner overcalls and your RHO passes... (1) Direct raises are always fairly weak/preemptive. (which is why forcing pass on this hand after parnters 4♥ slam try is right. This is a great hand for 3♣ (2) All non-game jumps into new suits show fits (as well as a jump to 4♥ opposite a 1♠ overcall, or to 5♣ opposite a diamond overcall). (3) The cheapest cue-bid always shows a sound raise. Opposite a one-level overcall it denies four trumps with a fair ODR. (4) A jump-cue to the three-level shows a mixed four-card (plus) raise - including (1♣)-1♦-(pass)-3♣. (5) 2NT is natural, except that opposite a 1♥/1♠ overcall it shows a ‘limit raise or better’ with four trumps -much as opposite a 1♥/1♠ opening. (6) A jump-cue to the four-level (including, say, (1♠)-2♦-(pass)-3♠) is a splinter-jump. Next to your issue is the fit jump forcing. The answer here is no, at least not for me. I understand the theory of showing your fit so partner can decide how high to bid, and in support of a major, I play fit jump as forcing to that major. But for minors (After a minor suit opening or overcall at the one or two level), my jump in a major is invitational and not forcing. The reason is clear to me.. if it was forcing we would have to get at least one level higher even when we have the major fit and no matter how weak my partner is. So I play 1C-2H as fit jump, non-forcing with hearts and clubs. I play 1C-(1D)-2H the same way. And I play these jumps to the three level the same way. If I have a hand that wants to force with the balck suits I would bid a forcing 1/2♠ and then raise clubs. Ben Ok, since you don't like common sense and like your bidding system. Let's talk about your system then. According to what you said, what would you bid with SAxx Hxxxxx Dxx CKxx? you bid 2H? 3H? You have only one bid, 3C! By no means 3C denies a major yet. It just denies good and long major suits and you still may have a major suit, right? If this is true, it's just nonsense to play 4H is forcing because you may just belong to 4H. Over 3C, it's extremely rare to construct a hand that you want to try slam. So a slam going forcing 4H doesn't really make sense. That means you have to play 5C when 4H is cold sometimes. A forcing pass by 3C raiser at 5 level only means one thing: he has a good fit in hearts and trying for 5H. Now it's just as clear as crystal how you should bid, you bid 5H with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQxxxx, yes, you may miss 6H, but you at least find the right suit to play. Slam bidding is always of low priority in this kind of competitve auctions. And 4H should be treated as natural, not as what you claimed, a slam try. And it's just ridiculous to assume partner holds 6 spades and bid a slam with Kx Axxx x AQJxxx and a forcing pass is just totally wrong I believe. Also, you should double 5D with the hand above over partner's forcing pass, because you need H 2-2 to make 5H and 5D double is sure thing. Ok, now I have given you what a forcing pass should show. The second issue, 2S is really a bid that both forcing or nonforcing players can play. As long as you play some straightforward method of 2S: you bid 2NT/3C/3S with a minimum and bid something else with extra. 2S can allow you to play at 3C when you have no fit and that's a super gain.

This is a false claim. Without overcall, it would go like this: 1C 1S 2N 3S(forcing) 4C(cue) 4D bla bla. This is an easy slam and nobody would miss it playing some basic stuff. A direct 4S is OK only when you have the agreement that you don't have 3 potential losers in side suits. And still, you don't really have 5 level safety facing such a good partner: SAxx HAKx DAKx CJxxx, you can say you don't bid over 4S with this hand, but then facing SKQJxxxxx Hxx Dxx Cx, 6S is cold and 5S is high facing the actual hand. So 1S is actually OK because it really produce a slam facing a proper 2NT rebid hands.

It's just an insane sequence. 14 HCP guy doesn't bid and 9 HCP balance then 14 HCP guy doesn't force to game. Are you guys really serious on this issue? This original one is jsut a normal sequence and you don't get good luck because opps preempted. It's just like opp opens 3S, you bid 3NT with 18 HCP, down 3! then some come to ask "can you do better". Yes, you can in this hand, but you are a huge loser in a long run if you don't bid 3NT, or if you balance with 9 or 10 count over 2H or if you pass partner's 3C overcall. You into one handed bridge. The "14 point' guy hand is not worth 14 points. His spade ace is in a short suit, he has three potential heart losers, three potential diamond losers. If vulnerable I would surely pass, not vulnerable, I would probalby think so long about bidding or passing that I would bid because to pass would place partner in an ethical situation to balance light (skip bid warning time is long enough for me to consider other factors---opponents, state of match -- and choose between pass or bid.. it is very close, not vul). As for the reopening double, it is automatic with this hand. IF your partner is going to reopen. Three clubs does seem a slight underbid, but not by much. Being not vul, that 5♣ seems very far off... however. So I think the auction is far from insane, but it takes north taking not one but two conservative actions. But if he does pass... he will hear a double from me with south's hand. Ok, you want a 12-13 HCP reopener to bid something over your 3C to avoid missing a cold game(can be a cold slam facing: SJxxx HA DAQxx CQxxx). Man, it's just not bridge.

There was NO 2♠ bidder... the forcing pass above was on the auction provided to us by the original poster WHO RAISED CLUBS... So, the FIT IS ALREADY assured, it is in clubs.. BID AND RAISED.... Your change the subject doesnt' help. I already agreed that raising clubs instead of bidding spades was wrong (although I would have have used fit jump instead of 3♣ raise... But anyway, all this blath above is nonsensee.. there WAS NO SPADE bidder.... I have never, not once, discussed that a 2♠ bid makes a pass of 5♦ forcing. As I have not discussed that auction. In fact, if I HAD BID 2♠ (which I would not have), I would double 5♦ because 2♠ is a huge overbid on this hand if it was forcing (as I play it). So I would double here to warn partner not to bid on... but that is not the issue. You raise a strawman with your arguements, try to stick the auction... (1D)-2C-(P)-3C (4D)-4H-(5D)-? <<--- this is the forcing pass situaion. Advancer is very good for his mild 3♣ bid, especially if you play unassuming cue-bid here. For the auction so far, he has a very good hand. The club king, the spade ace with legnth, the heart J9 (even the nine could be useful) doubleton. This hand is too good to double, which could show the same type of hand but with a club more, and spade Q-fifth, not Ace sixth. Give me a break.. I never bid spades and in the post we are discussing the hand RAISED clubs.. if I hold that hand, send me to an insane asylum immediately. The remainder of your aruging with yourself is deleted, but I will turn to the actual hand held... imagine partner with the hand he had .... SKx HAxxx Dx CAQTxxx, The bidding with the fit jump makes getting to 6♣ a piece of cake. The same fit jump you have commented negatively on. The same fit jump to 3♠ which isn't even forcing, so you can play any black suit contract between 3♠ and 7♠. So as for you comment about the following hand... . I don't play fit jumps like you do obviously. My 3♠ fit jump is not forcing (well fit jump for a major to 4 of a minor are forcing to the major, fit jump for the minor into a major can be passed). Partner would pass the jump to 3♠, since i made a non-forcing bid and he is looking at only 11 hcp. If I had forcing hand with spades and clubs I would bid a forcing 2♠ and then show clubs later. It is true that I can't be sure partner has 6 clubs and even with six clubs, 9 clubs is only "law protected" at the three, but if I bid 2♠ there is no way to stop in 3♣ and 2♠ horribly distorts my hand. While 3♠ might end the auction, and finds our best fit right away, while limiting my hand. As for partner holding this hand... If I made a fit jump, he would invite with 4♥, and then I would pass over five diamonds both times with AQxxx xx xx Kxxx and I would wack five diamonds with the hand with Axxxxx xx xx Kxx. Partner with doubleton diamonds would double, with spade support and slam interest will pull to 5♠, and with the hand withyour xx AKQx x AQJxxx would bid the slam opposite both forcing passes.... Everyone who wants to bid 3♠ as fit jump with this hand, you have my blessing and I think you are right. And if you raise clubs instead, over 5♦ (after partner bids 4♥), the forcing pass is also right. And to junyi_zhu if you want to disagree with these statements, fine.. but keep the two separate... the forcing pass on this auction was AFTER a raise... not a HUGE overbid of 2♠ that you espouse. Anyone who makes the extremely light 2♠ on this and then makes a forcing pass at 5♦ has no clue as to how to play bridge, but then no one but you has argued for that auction (well you argued against it, but no one I can see has suggested it in the first place). ben Even after a 3C raise, it's still a huge overbid to make a forcing pass at 5 level. You have no filler in hearts, you have only 3 clubs, the shape is 6-2-2-3 and you still want to make a forcing pass and hope to play a slam. Give me a break. So what would you do if you hold SAKxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx?(3C can be an underbid, but it doesn't really matter here) You would double 5D? And then find partner to hold xx AKQx Dx CAQJxxx? And you think SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx is better than Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, that's your claim. And this claim isn't true even using your favorate zar system. Also, if partner can't act with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, what do you really expect partner to bid over your forcing pass? how about this: SQx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx? You still can't make 6C and that's totally 18 HCP two queens more than the actual hand. Now I believe you get the point, passing is just a huge overbid and it's just not realistic. For the fit jump part, your 3S isn't what most consider as a fit jump, you may call it as a fit jump, but few would really think fit jump's definition as yours. And you still get high more times than 2S bidders.

It's just an insane sequence. 14 HCP guy doesn't bid and 9 HCP balance then 14 HCP guy doesn't force to game. Are you guys really serious on this issue? This original one is jsut a normal sequence and you don't get good luck because opps preempted. It's just like opp opens 3S, you bid 3NT with 18 HCP, down 3! then some come to ask "can you do better". Yes, you can in this hand, but you are a huge loser in a long run if you don't bid 3NT, or if you balance with 9 or 10 count over 2H or if you pass partner's 3C overcall. Bridge is somehow like texas hold'em sometimes. It has short term luck. And you have to accept the fact that you can't always find the best contract, especially when opps preempt, just like opps attack your big blind in late position with 85 unsuited and hit K88 in the flop and you lose some money in this one, that's not the reason you should fold with KQ once your opp raised your big blind. As long as you do the right thing, why do you care about the result of one hand and try to find the sequence to avoid the bad result of that single hand? You would just lose more money. balancing with 9 or 10 HCP and bidding 3C with 14 HCP over partner's reopening is just like folding KQ at bigblind over opp's late raise.

It's just an insane sequence. 14 HCP guy doesn't bid and 9 HCP balance then 14 HCP guy doesn't force to game. Are you guys really serious on this issue? This original one is jsut a normal sequence and you don't get good luck because opps preempted. It's just like opp opens 3S, you bid 3NT with 18 HCP, down 3! then some come to ask "can you do better". Yes, you can in this hand, but you are a huge loser in a long run if you don't bid 3NT, or if you balance with 9 or 10 count over 2H or if you pass partner's 3C overcall.

I am just talking about the sequence over 4D. Over 5D, pass is forcing for sure, but 2S bidder shouldn't pass. he should double it, because 6-2-2-3 shape isn't offensive oriented and you need specific high cards from partner to make 6C which isn't realistic. For example, if your partner holds: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx, can he bid anything over your forcing pass? No, even 5S wouldn't be makable. So you should just take the sure money, instead of dreaming of 6C. Bidding actually is quite an easy and straightforward thing if one does it straightforwardly. If you hold xx AKQx x AQJTxx and you had bid 4♥ over 4♦ and your partner makes a forcing pass over 5♦ when it gets back to you, you have no choice but to double. It was never the hand with spades that bids the slam, he just makes a forcing pass rather than mastermind the hand. This hand has nothing more than it as already shown, and no reason to suspect after his 4♥ bid (I would not bid 4♥ with this hand), his partner can have three of the follwoing four cards: ♣k. ♠AK, and ♦A, for iwth three of those, he would have bid 6♣ after the 4♥ bid. But you are right, bidding 3♣ (what robson says support with support), is wrong with this spade suit. But you are wrong about the fit jump to 3♠. Your partner rates to have 6♣ for his overcall (on average), so you have a nine card club fit, so a fit jump to 3♠ gets all your suits into play, and imo is the correct bid earlier on the hand. The auction is impossible as given. ben What does a forcing pass mean here? It guarantees a fit in either H/S or C and shows doubts on whether to bid or not. All it cares about is whether partner has some extra, not as how partner's HCP distributed. In that sense, a forcing pass by 2S bidder is day dreaming. He need HA, SKx, 6 good clubs, D shortness to make a slam. That's just too much. You've seen the four hands and claimed that 2S bidder should make a forcing pass, it doesn't make sense actually, because it just requires too much from partner to give you a play in 6C, and 6C is not even cold in that sense. So why do you play specific card from partner? You can easily hold SAQJTxxx Hxxx Dxx Cx, Ok, now you just want to know whether 5S is good, but you can't! Because partner doubles with such a great hand: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQTxxx, 6S would be makable upon a finesse and 5S is almost cold , and you defend 5D -2 x. I don't call it a bidding success. Change this hand to SKx HAxxx Dx CAQTxxx, D lead and H switch, oops, now even 5S is very very shaky, whose fault? Now you see how the forcing pass is so ridiculous here. You don't really have the right card strength to make it at 5 level so you should just double and hope for the best instead of daydreaming miracle 6C. Another case, you hold SAQxxx Hxx Dxx CKxxx, and again, this hand looks so nice, so you make a forcing pass, Opps, Partner bid something with SKx HAxxx Dx CAQJxxx, and you need S 3-3 to make 6C! Another hand, SAKxxx Hxx Dxx CKxxx, and again, you make a forcing pass, and partner doubles with Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJxxx, you miss the ice cold 6C, whose fault? If you double with the second hand and bid something with the first one, it's just losing bridge. For 3S jumpshift part. It's just an huge overbid. You want a minimum partner raise you to 4S with something like Sxxx HAx Dxx CAQJxxx? Even 3S would be rather high, if sp is 3-1, and you force this hand to play 4S or 4C no matter what. It's just losing bridge. Your plan of 2S is that you'd pass partner's 3S or 3C rebid, correct 2NT rebid to 3C and that's it. Then you claimed, because partner often hold 6 clubs, so you can force to 4C. Even the "law" promoter Larry Cohen wouldn't say a 9 card fit would be enough for players to play at 4 level, and sometimes, you may play a 8 card fit at 4 level, Sxx HAxxx Dxx CAQJTx, good luck!

I somehow agree, it's light, but if you don't bid it, you'd never be able to show it. This hand isn't quite slamish, it makes a slam only facing a very strong hand. Still, you gotta have a way to show your shortness below the game, otherwise, it's extremely hard for partner to continue. Actually, I don't really like support double here, if the rebid is 2NT, now you really have a clear picture of partner's hand. I feel, for strong balanced hands, it's still better to bid 2NT first than support double, because support double only bids 3 cards of your hand, 2NT shows the overall value and shape. Also, you may call it crazy because you don't really hold a stopper to bid 2NT:).

I am just talking about the sequence over 4D. Over 5D, pass is forcing for sure, but 2S bidder shouldn't pass. he should double it, because 6-2-2-3 shape isn't offensive oriented and you need specific high cards from partner to make 6C which isn't realistic. For example, if your partner holds: Sxx HAKQx Dx CAQJTxx, can he bid anything over your forcing pass? No, even 5S wouldn't be makable. So you should just take the sure money, instead of dreaming of 6C. Bidding actually is quite an easy and straightforward thing if one does it straightforwardly.

south has a 6 loser hand, partner shows 3 card support so he should bid more especially when he has a conservative partner who doesn't bid with 18 over his 4S. And the bidding is very easy actually: 4D. Actually north's conservative pass can work out handsomely, if partner happened to hold SKQJxxx hKxx DQxx Cx so I don't really think it's wrong, it's just conservative.

1S if you have partnership agreement to overcall shorter spades.

bridge is a game of spades, when you failed to show your 6 nice spades, it's just a crime. Now, You cuebid 4S and your partner would bid 6C? give me a break. What if your hand is something like: SAQx Hxx Dxxxx CKxxx? or AQxx Hxx Dxxx CKxxx? 6C? only when you hold 6 spades and your side may have a play in 6C which might not be cold. And once you bid 3C, you'd never be able to show your 6 spades. So the sequence is just impossible and no sane player should bid 6C over a 4S cuebid here. So 3C is just completely a distortion of your hand. 3S is also bad. Fit showing jump shows a much better hand than this one, you can't really force to 4C, but still, 3S is better than 3C because at least it showed spades. Also, if you bid 2S, your partner would have an easy 4H over 4D, how can you say you can hardly reach a game over 4D? it's just a piece of cake, man. Over that 4H, you can bid 5C to show your nice clubs and it's upto partner's judgement to bid 6C. And it's the only sane way to get there. Also, if you have some gadget, you can even bid 4NT over 4H as a last train bid to show some slam interest and partner would thus confidently bid 5N to let you pick the slam. Also, 4H implies nothing except that you have some value in hearts and a great hand. I don't buy the concept that 4H shows D control, it just doesn't make sense: you can easily hold S- HAKxx Dxxx CAQJTxx to bid 4H over 4D, and that can be the only way for you to find 6C: partner can easily hold SQJxx HQJxx Dx CKxxx . Also, 4H isn't even forcing in theory, Otherwise, you gotta bid some unmakable 5C when 4H is the only makable contract: SQxx HJxxx DAx Cxxxx vs: SJx HAKxx Dx CAKxxxx

It's an easy 2C no matter what system you play. I rate 1NT as very conservative, and I don't think it not serious:P I am strongly against 1S and 1S shouldn't really work for this hand.

I have a gadget here so I open 2C because we can show our 4 card hearts first then longer diamonds over a positive response of 2D. Otherwise, I rate it as close to open 1D or 2C. 1D is best for slam bidding and some game bidding area, you may sometimes reach otherwise unbiddable slams if you open 1D and you may sometimes find excellent 5D or 4H when 3NT goes down, but you also may be passed out by partner, also you have a hard time to rebid if partner bids 1H. 2C then 2NT is best for gamebidding.

Not forcing if dont play xyz. But it will be strange that there is no competitive with weak responder. It's no strange at all, that usually means misfit.

Are you guys serious? It's MP and either D or C would be a perfect lead without costing a trick. For HJ, you gain 1 time out of more than 20 times I guarantee.

As I mentioned in the other post, 3♦ is natural. Marshall Miles mentioned this in one of the Southern Cal Bridge News columns a number of years ago. He was adamant that 3♦ should be natural and most of the others agreed. I don't really think this 3D being natural is a good treatment. If you play this 3D being natural, is it forcing? If it's forcing, why don't you just bid 3NT instead? You think you may belong to 5D? Give me a break. If you don't play this 3D as forcing, you still can bid 2NT over 2H, which also suggests penalty oriented long diamonds. So 3D really should be a cuebid unless you really like to play 3D here as nonforcing, which makes some sense, but it's very rare, and you still can play 3D if you bid 2NT and your smart partner bids 3D to play:)

SAxxxx HAQxxx Dx Cxx would be enough for a game(trump 2-2 or HK on side), which contains 6 losers, and I don't really think partner should bid 4H here facing a normal 7-8 HCP hand: Sxx HJxxx DQJxxx CAx. So a most scientific bid is 3D here to show a better invitation and 4H is probably also OK, but 3H is an underbid because you have 3 cover cards. 4H actually makes facing many 6 loser minimum: SAxxxxx HAKxx Dx Cxx, you need H 3-2 and S 3-2, which qualifies a red 4H. SQTxxxx HKQJx Dx CAx, you also need both suits break. SAxxxx HAKxx D- CJxxx, you need some luck in majors and friendly leads, but not hopeless. So overally, I believe 3D is the best bid showing a good raise to 3H, and even if you bid 3D, you still may miss a good game facing some good minimum hands. The assumption here is that I assume 2H show some extra in either HCP or shape(a 6 or less losers hand) and I know why many bid 3H here, because they don't show any extra by 2H here.

Just bid 3C over 2H, now it's very hard to bid. you probably should cuebid 4H and hope partner can understand your situation which I am not positive about.

It's not what should or what should not. It's a matter of partnership agreement and style. In my partnership agreement, we play double to show value and takeout oriented, pass as either penalty oriented or very poor hands. So we'd double 4S here. For the second one, it's probably best to bid either 4NT or even 5D(position issue) instead of doubling, because if you double, it becomes not biddable over partner's 5H in my structure. For the third one, just bid 6C, which is what you think you can make.

It's very odd. One most important issue hasn't been mentioned by anybody here. If you play 1S forcing, you got make your responder's range way more wider than non-forcing treatment, in that case, you would have a tougher time. In standard treatment, responder can pass 1S with good 5 HCP and most 6 HCP and some bad 7 HCP without basic tolerance in opener's first suit. However, if you make 1S forcing, you have to bid something here. So your 1NT range is wider, 2S range is wider, 2 level rebid range is also wider and you may not be able to handle it well, because often would invite 3 level and get passed. For standard treatment, you can pass 1S with this hand: Sxxx HAJTxx Dxxxx Cx, over 1C 1H 1S, now you just can't. So you have to bid something which would affect your bidding accuracy, which can be a huge negative effect in a long run. a good 7 to normal 10 HCP 1NT rebid is rated to be more accurate than a good 5 to normal 10 HCP 1NT. However, people just neglect that part. Another problem is that opener's range is also wider, 1S rebid can cover from 11 to 20 after 3 bids. I don't call it a bidding success. For example, do you invite to 3S with good 16 if partner raises you to 2S? Partner can be as weak as good 5. or as good as bad 10. Do you really think it's playable?

For normal 2/1 systems, these hands are no good to open in my humble opinion, the reason is simple, if you face a good 12 2/1 GF bid, they often don't produce a game which has play. So if you still play 2/1 system, you have to raise your 2/1 response range. However, you still would sacrafice the bidding accuracy of your system, because your opening range covers from good 10(5-4 shape) to some bad 20 or even more. However, I know most modern players are just so confident in their constructive bidding and they believe they can handle this wide range well. I call it "over-confident", and I know many just don't agree. I don't think I am a very "solid" opener, I open most 5-4 shape with 12 and some good 5-4 shape with 11(often contains a spade suit). I pass almost all 5-3-3-2 with 11. I open most 4-4-3-2 12 and pass awful ones. I open 4-3-3-3 12 only without defects and I treat all seats about equal and don't buy very light 3rd seat openings. 3rd seat can be about 1 HCP lighter, and that's all. I know most players here are more aggressive than me, but still, if you really want to improve the accuracy of your 2/1 system, I somehow believe my range is about the minimum opener you can afford. For sayc like system, the opener can be slightly lighter, but not much. For strong 1C systems, it can be lighter, but you still may face other problems, such as a wider range of 1C opening and 1D guarantees no real suits problems which may affect your bidding accuracy, especially in competitive auctions. Actually, one gotta compet more heavily against such systems to gain the maximum out of it. Also, to me, light 3rd seat openings are just not playable in many competitive situations, like p p 1S 3D, can partner bid 3NT here with good 10 if you open 8 HCP 1S? That's also a problem for zar or something similiar. When you have a fit, you may find the fit earlier by opening light, but when you have no fit, you gotta play more unmakable 3NT than others, especially in competitive situations. Well, nobody here except me really cares about this issue and you guys can usually make 8 + 11 HCP 3NT which I normall can't. hehe.

I don't really like puppet either, however if partner insists, I don't mind playing it. To me, it's just inferior to standard treatment. 5-4 majors becomes not biddable. I don't mind an artificial 2NT 3NT as long as we both still remember it. Actually Greg and I play 3NT for coventional meanings, and we haven't forgotten it so far.

20 to bad 22 might be the solution. My official range is good 19 to bad 22. Actually you can think it this way, if you want to play 3NT facing only one king, you should probably open 2C. Otherwise, you can open 2NT.