Oren Goren

Well, since psoting the previous I thought I had it all worked out, going to the DOS prompt and running the edit program from there after deleting the screwed up wj2005 card. Yep, was able to do some editing and then decided to start from scratch. Created a new card (FILE: new) and worked the opening bids up through 2NT, and then re-edited the 1C bid to be more concise. It wouldn't change the description after I had many such changes to fit the description into the space that shows up. Not this time, and when I tried to save the whole thing (FILE: save/save as) it went through the motions and saved nothing. All the work lost.

It would get more usage if it was even close to user friendly. It doesn't even save your changes in a user friendly manner. I have asked in the past how to share or even show a card to someone else. The not-user-friendly answer by jdaming was not friendly. Ask him just how you and someone else are going to agree on the card in order to form the partnership.

Thanks. I previously read Dirksen's Fantunes file and did find what I like opposite my system weak NTs w/5-card majors (highly) possible (NF Stayman, Doubleton Major Relay), but their treatment of twos was of no help to me. [The situations I sought insight for was to improve bidding after interference against 8-11/16+ one bids.] Interesting idea that F-N might be related to EHAA. Will have to reread with that idea in mind!

I have previously sought help in how to accomplish CC swaps, transfers, but gotten no help. BTW, the bottom of this window says "last 10 posts" but were there 10?

Actually, with the web-client when I click "edit" on a default card (WJ2005) I am unable to do anything but mark it my favorite and/or save it, which is far from what I need to do. Previously, I did save it for study, which for the most part I have to do in the Windows client, where once or twice I was able to edit a little in the form it came in (where you can "advance the bidding") but then the responses mysterioulsy disappeared and could not be recovered. there I was not able to delete the darn thing, but did eventually on the web client just now. I suppose, now that I have saved a new copy of WJ2005 I will once again have the whole thing on the Windows client, but ... Trial end error? If not so difficult - and I have been unable to consistently edit the darn things on the Windows client - what would be so difficult for you to give us one or two pointers? oren

Well, you sure got a lot of forum help on this one! I've emailed support, and sent chat to helpers and one forum admin, and never gotten a response en re CC's.

LOL I have no desire to play EHAA twos but I was wishing that someone who took seriously trying to manage things well when playing them might have some insight/principle that would help me out in my much more constructive system.

hmmmm. Thanks oren

LOL

Well, yes, EHAA is not artificial but surely filling out their CC is interesting! Just how, please, do the best pairs respond to those undisciplined twos, even w/o interference. And with interference by opener's LHO? This info could maybe/certainly help fine tune WELOS ones. thanks! oren

It is NOT clear. ACBL (rulings@acbl.org) told me I could not use transfer bids (weak, invitational, or strong) over a Precision 2♣ opener even though I pointed out rule 6. (Responses and Rebids, GCC) Larry P.S. Thus, they have interpreted rule 6 to mean strong hands if 2♣ or higher. Thanks, both of you. It was because of the rule's sloppy structure that I was unsure. The rational reading is as hrothgar said, but the ACBL's indifference to good English made me afraid the relay was illegal. Who'da thunk George W. Bush had written the charts and was in charge of interpretation?

In the short time since I posted the card I read the Gerben Dirksen version of Fantunes. Their NF Stayman + Doubleton Major Relay treatment fits WELOS near perfectly, the major consideration being they handle 5M422, a possible and maybe highly helpful feature of WELOS MIDI/Weak NTs.

Thanks! I read that whole C&C Committee thing last night after posting the question. My main gripe - it diluted the heck out of my WELOS - was the demand for 8+HCP. We open(ed) 8-11 16+Total Points/Goren 4+. I don't know hold old you are, but in the early 70s the ACBL defined natural, treatment, and conventional very clearly, and then more than a decade later would still rule that NTs by position were conventions even though actually natural. Schizophrenia! Uncontracted regards! oren

Thanks, gentlemen. I guess I didn't miss anything. So, the question will be: If one changes to 5+, can contain a side suit of length n+, is there a legal set of responses to cheaply find out if opener has that side suit. Which brings us to my other ACBLish question in Offline Bridge? , about whether cheapest response asking for side suit; 2NT rebid saying "yes, THAT suit and no cheaper suit". Would be off over 2S. Thanks Uncontracted regards oren

Given a 12-15 Total Points 2C/2D/2H, is cheapest suit response legal as asking for opener to rebid in cheapest 2nd suit? [2NT shows relay suit and no cheaper suit call.] General purpose, not forcing to game, not invitational, but responder's rebid could be (or not) a force? I can't tell reading either the GCC or Mid-Chart. Or, since the bid ASKS for suit, is it an "asking bid" and not a "relay"? Asking is how I think of it but some insist it is a relay. Isn't a relay just a tempo to put the move back on the other partner? Thanks!

The heading asks it for me. I don't see how 6-10 with a known suit and another fits any of the allowed categories. Have I missed something? (I hope not because I'll feel especially stupid about it.) oren

WELOS: Webster's Extra-Light Openers System. Back in the late 70s I had already gone through my psych everything phase, had been taught by duplicate to open light, and taught by Roth-Stone the importance of balancing. These influences became: Pre-Balance Pre-Compete Pre-Respond Pre-Overcall And, because of the Big Clubbers' strut and crow: Pro-Scribe. I spent a couple months trying to come up with a viable method allowing extra-light openers and constructive bidding. Gadget after gadget worked a little but all nauseated me. Finally, I got it, relieve the burden on the opener-responder-rebid system. Lowering the upper level really wouldn't do it. Too many ambiguities third- and fourth-suit artifical might help out but yuck. If I had not seen Woodson Two-Way NTs sometiime in the past I might not have had the necessary insight although they never occurred to me in the development process. (And only now because of tneir frequent mention in the ACBL chart.) MINIs = 8-11 Total Points (TP); read HCP for the 8 in ACBL events. MIDIs = 12-14 HCP NT; 12-15 TP suits. MAXIs = 15(+) HCP NT; 16(+) TP suits (top depends on forcing openers). Everything here and above First and Second Seat. You don't want to get frisky in 3rd or 4th seat with WELOS. OPENING ONES ========== Either MINIs or MAXIs. 1C/1D/1H/1S = 4+ 8-11 TP or HCP, or 15+HCP/16+TP. Yes, you need to know how to prepare your rebid. RESPONSES TO ONES ------------------------- Jump Shift Only Force (besides Control Asking). 1/1 Suit or NT 6-14 NF. Denies 4+ cards in opening suit. If it is their hand, as is quite likely we have pre-empted their opening system, so don't let opener's RHO show her stuff cheaply. Opener's rebid that is not a jump or reverse is a MINI. 2/1 Suit or NT/1 9/10+. Denies 4+ cards in opening suit. If it is their hand, as is quite likely we have pre-empted their opening system, so don't let opener's RHO shoe her stuff cheaply. Opener's rebid that is not a jump, new suit at 3-level, or reverse is a MINI. SP = Support points = TP + Goren fit adjustments (honor bonus, distribution bonus). Single Raise: 4+ cards and 6-14 SP NF. Sometimes 3 cards; Goren 4M players know that. Double Raise: 4+ cards and 15-16 SP NF. Consider the single raise versus bottom MINI: no game. Consider the single raise versus top MINI: no game probably, partner used Goren Support Points Consider the double raise versus top MINI: game on. Consider the single raise versus bottom MINI: no game probably. Consider the double raise versus bottom MAXI: likely slam. After 1C/D - 3C/D perhaps look for major, perhaps with gadget. 1NT response: 6-14 HCP NF; denies intervening suit or 4+ in opening suit. 2NT response: 15-16 HCP NF. denies intervening suit or 4+ in opening suit. OPENING NT ======== A MIDI. 12-14 HCP; possible 5-card major, especially if weak. OPENING TWO BIDS ============= MAXIs. 12-15 TP NF 4(+) cards. Learn how to prepare a rebid and you'll be OK with the loss of one level of bidding. That is, don't be so proud of your 4-card spade suit. If you open a Two it is because you have distribution. Which means you have at least one other suit. TWOS RESPONSES ---------------------- Largely depends on you. Constructive only? Run-outs? We find cheapest bid over 2C/2D/2H relay asking for cheapest rebid suit (2NT rebid shows relay suit and no cheaper suit. Over 2S, well, 2S is the bid I don't like very much. Maybe because "I" went from 1st to not-1st last hand in a Men's Pairs because partner opened 2S and then concealed his diamonds. THIRD/FOURTH SEAT ============== I read recently that a (fairly) light opener system would also get frisky in 3rd seat? Boo! unless you have very nice length, strength in the suit. OR, a hand that might work very well opposite a passed WELOS partner. Larsson's analysis was that WELOS opens 83% of the opportunities (EHAA "just" 74%). In practice since opponents often were in first seat we opened 63%-80% of the hands in agressive duplicates. In the ACBL-diluted WELOS, which demands 8 HCP he could have 7 HCP. In real WELOS, if he has HCP worth a darn he has a hand too flat to make HCP+321 distribution add up to 8 TP. WITH INTERFERENCE ============== WELOS doesn't demand any particular methods, just remember that opener may have less than 8 HCP or 8-11 and a flat hand. With 1/1 or 2/1 an opening MAXI is very likely to be able to re-open or free-bid. Hey, if you understand and dig WELOS you are probably so smart the question of interference bidding is a piece of cake for you. WHEN THEY OPEN =========== If partner had a chance to open and didn't, what is the problem? If not, use whatever methods you always use. MODIFICATIONS TO WELOS ================== Since I don't like the one bid, the 2S opener, I have tried to come up with alternatives, but all lose opportunity for the system to work to the fullest extent. oren goren

Thanks for the link. I've downloaded the file and also passed through it quickly. I didn't see the word "Polish" but did see the Club was being asked to carry a huge load. Is that contrary to the spirit of WJ2005? oren

I'm slightly surprised to see this attributed to me, because I don't agree with it :) lol Well, I did ask you in the middle of the night, on your site, if I had missed where you said that! thanks oren

Thanks, y'all. As I noted in another forum in response to bluecalm's explanation of the background of WJ2005's strong 1NT, weak NT in 1C: The real structural problem is the insistence on 5M. 4441 or 5440, any suits, are all A-OK if the 5 is not clubs, but surely could treat them as 4. 1C: 15-17 bal/ 15+ 4+ Cs / 18+ any. 1N: 12-14 HCP. 1D/H/S: 11-17 4+. (1D poss w/5 Cs) oren

Thanks for the background and info. From what you say, I'd say the real structural problem is the insistence on 5Ms. Maybe play Polish Quatro: Polish w/4-card majors and weak NT. A somewhat relevant note: This re-entry of mine into bridge has exposed me to quite a lot of ... yucky stuff about choice of suit by 4M types. Seems no one knows about prepared rebids anymore. I understand the emphasis on majors vs possible interference, always did, but minors are useful in competition also. oren

Thanks. I'll check out that article. Curiously, my system's structure - the whole shebang - is based on that concept. So that a one is 8-11 or 15+. oren

The WJ2005 1C includes 12-14 HCP flat hands, club suit not required. And, the opening NT is 15-17, 18+ being part of the 1C. Why not the reverse? Strong NT part of 1C, and open weak NTs? Actually, why the way it is? Thanks oren

I'm going to post a question on the club discussion forum that might suggest to you a cure to your finding that it takes too long to find opener has the big hand. oren

I am not defending description of wj2005. Maybe Jassem made a mistake of omitting those hands. What I am saying is this : a)every polish player playing polish club including Jassem will open 4=4=1=4 shape with 1C and won't consider it "problem hand". It's just standard like opening 1D with 2-3-4-4 shape in SAYC. There are many varietes of wj you open 1C with that hand in all of them (excluding some 25+years old in which you had special 2D opener for 3 suited hands) b)same applies to 4=4=4=1 and 1D opener c)as to (41)=4=4 shape: These days almost all players open this 1D. Old school was to open 1C with red singleton and 1D with black one. I don't really see the point but it was the way in old polish club systems. Jassem did make a note of 4=4=0=5 hands. Those are opened with 1C not 2C. This one is not "obvious" in the sense that some polish club players would open this hand with 2C. I hope that helps. I responded to this post earlier, bluecalm, but it hasn't shown up and once again the forum software took me to your post as being unread. I was giving you your deserved due, not criticizing you. When I wrote jassem about the problem he concisely said open 1C. When I pointed out that the convention card and the file both don't include the hands in any opening bid he wrote back saying the card does say to use 1C for these unbalanced hands with that HCP range. Are we all insane? Or is he just being a ... well, you know. Are there two cards? oren