I appreciate all the suggestions and I like many of your ideas. I have also been reading Mr. Gitelman's improving 2/1 articles and think having a forcing balanced raise could be useful. Right now we use bergen raises, jacoby, 2nt, 1M-3OM as a mini-splinter, 1M-3NT as 13-15 bal with 3 cd support, 1M 4C as 16+ bal 3 cd support, and 1M 4D as a 5 card support sub limit raise 8-11 or so. Unfortunately, this does not give us a true balanced forcing raise. We have considered using 1H-2S for this meaning but we still need something over 1S. I know its possible to give up one step of the Bergen raise to make room, but I'd rather not. Any suggestions? Jonathan