PhantomSac

Are you serious? You didn't watch the videos very well. Louk showed Lotan his hand on board 1 before dummy came down. So that is how Lotan knew that he had a stiff trump. That is on video and not disputable, whether he signalled Ron or not is unclear but Lotan knew Louks trump holding. On board 3 he peeks at his screenmates hand on his way to get water or to the bathroom or wahtever. That is how he knew who had the queen in the key suit. When he comes back he moves only his left and and moves it frequently, keeping his left elbow low enough where his partner could see.

some videos up on bridgecheaters

loled pretty hard, well done

Hey Richard, You have been at the forefront of that movement for as long as I can remember, before all these scandals (possibly even when we started posting here, has it really been 11 or 12 years?). It is certainly the best way to eliminate cheating. But in my opinion the cost is too high (as I think you know about me). I really enjoy sitting at the table, interacting, the psychology, needling etc. I actually just enjoy being around people, I think I am generally one of the more social pros at the table (I enjoy laughing, talking etc in general.) I would be in favor of more effective ways of eliminating cheating that do not involve having to play in an electronic environment. None of those methods would be as good as an electronic environment for that goal ofc. Anyways, I am only one person. If it goes that way it goes that way. I assume if most people want it it will go that way, this is no longer a fringe hrothgar idea it is something that many people are suggesting.

Note, the president of the ACBL has now posted a statement. "I am in the process of expanding and formalizing an expert review committee to assist us going forward." Great news. She says that "she initiated" discussions of this before chicago. Even if true, Boye's "grandstanding" has certainly sped up the process. He is doing a great job and change is happening because of him and his methods. When the government won't do anything, protesting and civil disobedience combined with media sympathy and support is very powerful. That is what is happening here, and it's working. The point is more than just getting F-S, it is to make long lasting effective changes to get the next F-S, and the one after that, etc.

Nice post. That is exactly what has happened in this case. Boye did not get hundreds of hands on his own in a few weeks (though he did work tirelessly looking at vugraph archives). There were lots of hands out there and Bessis is an example so far of someone who gave many hands (and got some from other top pros he asked also). Maybe that should have happened earlier, but as you know we are raised to NOT take this initiative on our own, and instead to rely on the recorder form. I can promise you that there have been dozens (and I would guess hundreds) of recorder forms filed on this pair. I sound like a broken record but they have been required to be monitored every single board they play and be on video tape for the last year. I am guessing that stemmed from lots of recorder forms! If it is the case that it is on the players and not the league to catch cheaters (even though the system is we report hands to the league), then that's fine, make it official. The league is incompetent. Exactly right, it would be wrong of anyone who is not like top 50 in the world to judge the most successful pair in the world of the past few years. That is why Larry Cohen suggested exactly this, a tribunal made up of world class players who judges these cases. However, the league needs to implement that, the players do not have the power. And the league wants to know HOW the cheating is occurring. That system is terrible, as you say world class players know when theyre being cheated and if presented hundreds of hands and allowing the defendants to defend themselves, they decide that this is definitely cheating then that's a good system. I would love that. That idea was only presented after Boye did his thing (by Larry Cohen), but I think we are all in favor of it. However we do not have that power. It needs to be made official by the league. The league needs to implement this change. You are right we have waited too long for the league but that is what we have always been taught to do (sorry I'm not trying to preach this to you, you have been a top player since before I was born and obviously know this better than me, just making my point). What you are seeing is the effect of the league NOT doing any of these things. They are not acting on 100s of hands that are 100 % proof to world class players. They are not enlisting the help of world class players to evaluate. They are demanding to know HOW before they act. Your ideas are very good. They are the same ideas that "we" (world class players) have. They are the same ideas we have posted on bridgewinners to stop cheating. They are the same ideas we are looking for the league to implement. But yeah, before that happens, what then? Do it ourselves without the league? That is what is happening. The recorder system doesn't work. World class players are not enlisted by the league (until now, I believe they are looking more strongly with the help of WC players BECAUSE of the what Boye has done). We are done waiting around for 5+ years while the top events are won by cheaters. We are done whispering. We are organized (because of BOYE's initiative). We do not trust the league to do this, we want to work with them to help. We want change. That is what is happening here. And it's a great thing, even all the discussion it has generated. I don't like reading bridgewinners or their layout but you should take the time to read all the various threads and posts. It will probably take you several hours but it might be worth it. I will only say 2 things in closing: 1) Boyes last post said tomorrow he will release video clips that have been publicly available on youtube. These are cross referenced with the hands I will assume. He urged the ACBL to give up their footage of fisher/schwartz and make it PUBLIC, so that the many smart people can try to crack the code etc. Reading between the lines, that makes it seem like the ACBL is NOT working with Boye, and is being secretive and non transparent with their video. Maybe that is required by law but it is not in the best interest of convicting or exonerating F-S. 2) You make the point that "only top players can really judge this." I wholeheartedly agree. Here is a list of people who have OPENLY said now that they are convinced F-S cheat: Jeff Meckstroth Geoff Hampson Peter Fredin Boye Brogeland Drew Casen Tom Hanlon Brad Moss Thomas Bessis Kit Woolsey Bobby Levin (one of Brogelands stories on his site starts that bobby came up to him and said "did you see how they cheated you?" though he has not spoken publicly I will guess we can believe that account) Myself I am very sure I am missing others because that is just off the top of my head. And tbh I have heard it from so many people that I want to make sure I get the ones who did say it openly rather than throw someone under a bus. What world class players have defended F-S? Ron Pahctmann, Rons brother in law, and it is debatable whether you would consider him a "top player." Even Lauria in his statement (teammate of FS) said he will wait for the ruling, but that FS played badly in the final lol. Not exactly the strongest defense. Based on your last post I think you might actually agree with whats going on mike if you had all the facts.

Lanzarotti and Buratti were well known cheats long before they were caught. Hamman was trying to make a big case to not invite them to the cavendish, asked tons of top players for hands, eventually it was decided that the evidence was "not conclusive" so obv they played and won. Before that I think they were doing quite well in ACBL nationals, nothing like the success of F-S, but yeah, they musta been cheating for 5+ years also having great success before getting busted. If that is the system working, I would like a new system. And the cheating doctors? They didnt even cheat at the highest levels so they went much longer I guess. They came to the cavendish once and were just "the cheating doctors." You may not like "whispers" but these things are very well known before anything ever happens, if it ever happens. And the only reason anything does ever happen is because the whispers get too loud and the players become too high profile. In this case bridge has just been a mockery for a while and ACBL still wont do anything because OMG WE DONT KNOW EXACTLY HOW THEY DO IT. Brilliant stuff.

I like this idea and other data driven statistical approaches. This is how online poker cheaters are caught FWIW but the sample size of hands is much much bigger which makes it easer (like hundreds of thousands to millions of hands). Stuff like this is the way of the future.

I apologize if I did that (not saying I didnt my mind is just spinning right now). I was upset before the SJ came out, figured I would be happier after the site went up and people saw, then got more mad lol. If I generalized or mischaracterized people I apologize. Obviously the people who are hurt most by this kind of alleged activity are people like me... "fringe top pros" if you will who are outskilled by people like Helgemo/Meck and outcheated by other people. Sorry if I was over the top. edit: And of course outcheated was a stupid phrase, hopefully everyone knows I meant "cheated" and was just going for the out/out alliteration which obviously means something I didn't mean lol

yes

how about in the last year alone? They won 2 spingold a the reisinger a Swiss and the Europeans and the world sport accord teams (off the top of my head). This with the very successful graves Schwartz pair lol. They are the best ever for sure, or at least having the sickest run in modern bridge history by far. oh sorry also with the Cayne team. I think I read that was caynes first spingold win since 1990 in the bulletin but not sure.

I get it. I think you don't get my point that showmanship may be necessary. His endgame is presumably to force or entice the leagues to act. Just revealing everything at once is worse if that's your goal. The leagues are under way more pressure every day to act this way. And hopefully they will. If the ACBL were functional or competent at all I agree this is not the way to go. I do not know his motive but I think this is creative and smart. I can guarantee you he's not doing it for attention or to be dramatic for the sake of being dramatic.

ok did you read what I wrote! It's quite possible his method is necessary. everyone has tried handling this with recorder forms and just turning over evidence. It does not work! If potential cheaters are caught via this method when they wouldn't have otherwise then that is a pretty fantastic thing. You have way too much faith in the powers that be if you think just sending the ACBL the info (which he has publicly stated he did) will cause anything to happen in a timely manner. Sorry that has been tried for the last 3 years. Something else is necessary and I applaud his efforts.

and now the jack of spades is played. maybe you guys can wake up some. remember three more cards left. www.bridgecheaters.com

I do wonder some things. Like why are zero people (other than rons brother in law) supporting him? look at the support mike passell got. Why are they saying nothing? Maybe legal advice but I'm sure if you were innocent while your name was being tarnished you would just sit there and take it that makes sense. Why are they the only top pair that 100 percent of the whispers are about by top players? Why is this the first time anyone has vacated their wins? Why would the ***** client go along with that with as you guys say "no evidence." Why are they the only ones being monitored? Why after their cavendish pairs win have they not played since? They even go and play the teams. Really interesting. What are your thoughts on someone being convicted of cheating at 14? But yes most likely it's a conspiracy against them, people don't like them and boye went insane after losing so vacated his wins and the client went along after paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for that. And probably he has no evidence and wants attention, and probably people change after cheating at 14 and being barred for 2 years. and probably they just choose not to play the cavendish pairs after winning. And probably all top players whispering are wrong and just don't understand the elite level this pair is on. Brilliant!

And full disclaimer I am not accusing anyone of cheating, just thinking hypothetically because I am too weak to risk my job by being suspended and risk getting sued! That's what the current system is. Everyone is afraid of getting sued and losing their job and being barred. No one can say anything. You have a guy vacating his wins and risking all of that and you think he's just grandstanding for attention or because he lost by 1. It's brilliant.

lol yep that's boye flamboyant grandstanding! obviously he just has lost his mind because he lost by 1 to them so he has decided to vacate all of his previous wins (and his client who paid massive amounts of money for that also agreed to). That theory is brilliant and makes a lot of sense. Perhaps he has to do this in a flamboyant way for the genius administrators to do anything but cover their own asses. These guys have been monitored for 1 year by these geniuses. Every bid every play, hidden cameras, the works. And yet they have done nothing and will continue to do nothing unless you know maybe someone talks about this in a "flamboyant" way. How long do you think "whispers" and whatever have to happen before it is decided that you must be monitored for every board. Including paying someone to do that, etc etc. Lol at the earlier estimate of "well it might take a year for the ACBL to do anything!" A year? hahahaha. Try 10. Unless you know maybe someone does something drastic. What history does Boye have of grandstanding? he's been in the game a long time, what history of drama does he have? Maybe you guys should think a little and let him play his jack of spades.

Some really incredibly naive posts itt

no idea what the best line is but I'm pretty sure it's s terrible contract

Sick... congrats!

It's funny now (even though I'm sure it was true then) how Gavin was portrayed as lazy and Vince a hothead. Nowadays Gavin is known as the responsible one out of all of us, having 2 kids (more on the way), a house in a community, a dog, basically the suburban life :P And Vince, who is one of my closest friends, has completely mellowed out and also has a couple of kids of his own. He is probably one of the nicest teammates/partners you could ask for. Maybe having kids does change people, or maybe people just grow up heh. Also funny they both play for USA and will represent our country in the bermuda bowl this year.

Man this seems so long ago... Good times. Everyone looks so young.

I think 2S should be natural. Not that it's going to come up very often lol, but you have X and 2N both for takeout.

Would you guys not X at imps? I mean what are we waiting for we are a passed hand. I would double at imps vul and consider it a WTP. We could still have game and there is still value in competing for the partscore and people are still not ripping us at imps enough even if we are in some trouble. I would actually think MP vul against good players is the scariest X but would still X then.

Can't imagine not doubling on hand 2. I don't know enough about Acol and 4 card majors to answer the first one probably.