rbforster

From the discussion, I like the general arguments for takeout doubles. It seems pretty rare that the NT opener would make one, but perhaps that's also a function of your NT range (it's safer to force a weak passed partner to compete if you've got 15-17 than 10-12), and also the level of their interference (safer if partner's likely to find a spot a the 2 level). Cooperative doubles don't seem so unreasonable. In the simple case, if opener never doubles and you balance with double for takeout, you catch them on one 4=2 split. If you double with 3 'cooperatively', you catch them on the 3=3 split. The latter is more likely. Still, there may be other factors like opener's doubling frequency (which picks up some of the 2=4 splits too), that 4-2 splits tend to make for bigger penalties than 3-3 splits, especially 4-2 splits over declarer, etc.

8-5 is still 1-suited I think. I might try 6♥ and since partner would yell at me for opening 2♣ on a 2 loser hand. Over 2♠, 3♣ sounds forcing, and I'll follow up with 5N over partner's likely 3N.

I'd call 2♣-3♣ "furthering the preempt" in precision, at least the way I play. It's not a broke hand to raise, but opener would need something truly exceptional to bid on.

As Flameous says, one way is to have a different balanced range assigned to each minor. This causes your minor suit bids to be less sound (2+ suit), but avoids the wide-ranging problem: 1N 10-12 1D 13-14 bal or natural 1C 15-17 bal or natural stronger balanced hands bid per standard (better minor then 2N, 2N, 2C) Note that having 1D be the weaker NT range, you solve your rebid problem over the annoying 1D-1N auction. If partner's 1N bid is ~5-10, you can safely pass with the balanced 13-14. With 1C having the stronger range, you have more space and partner can respond 1D vs 1N to show his range and you'll be able to find the right level.

A boring 1♥...2♥ for me in either case. I know 2/1 players should alert 1♥-1N-2♣ as 2+, but somehow I thought it was more often 4522 than 3622. Perhaps more of the experts are playing some version of Gazilli than realize it (1M-?-2♣ rebid = clubs or various strong). As for losing the heart fit, perhaps Ken can devise a system similar to Texas so the opening NT bidder can show his 6c majors and 7c minors later in the NT auction...

I suppose this is a question over any NT opening by partner, but it seems to arise most over weak NT's where the opponents sometimes strain to bid constructively... If I've got a maximum pass opposite partner's NT, what's your preferred method for trying to penalize the opps when they step out of line? 1N*-(P)-P-(2♠) *10-12; spades natural P-(P)-? Say you've got a mostly balanced hand with ~9-11 points yourself (not quite enough to invite). What do you with 4 good spades, or 2 small spades, or something in between? Aside from doubling, is it worth using 2N to show some types of hands here? Will you ever expect partner to have taken action in direct seat? It seems like this is too risky (since you could be broke), which puts you in an unfortunate situation of having to assign only 1 meaning to the double when you'd ideally like both t/o and penalty options.

Here I was thinking that either red game seemed hopeless (4♥/5♦)... 4♠ for me.

Maybe stolen bid for Drury... ;) Seriously. If partner can support hearts twice, why didn't he do so on the first round? 2♥ or 3♣ would make a lot more sense (and have kept the opps out of our auction too).

A sane auction would be: 1♦-(2♣)-X-(P) 2♦-(P)-3♦-AP That said, South might consider a weak 2♦ opening too. Vul 2nd seat should be sound, and this hand would be nicely described by that.

Dwayne - let me offer you some additional advice on using AKQ points. Out of the 24 total points, you typically want 20+ for slam under normal circumstances. This means you're off either AQ or KK out of all the honors. Remember you'll usually have time to figure out some of partner's honors before you have to go past game, and certainly will have a lot more information before you go past the 5 level. Don't always ask for AKQ points, even if it's tempting to try out the new methods. Opener should be counting his own AKQ total, and if it's 10(11?) or less, he should sign off rather than inquiring under most circumstances (excepting a big fit or no wastage opposite shortness). You won't miss any of the common 20 AKQ point slams, since responder will bid on with 9+ AKQs. It will actually save bidding space to sign off (especially in 3N) rather than asking for strength since responder will bid 4C with 9 controls while if you'd asked over final shape with a 3H or 3S bid, showing 9 controls would be a higher response than 4C anyway. If you've identified a major fit, it's more reasonable to ask even with 10 or less since responder can make a pretty high response without going past 4M-1 (so 4M is still to play) and if he had to show strength over your 4D end relay he'd be bidding 4S just to show 9 controls. Certainly there are slams that make with only 18-19 AKQ points, but these will require a good suit fit and shortness opposite no wasted values. If relayer has a suit with Axx opposite partner's known singleton, the KQ in that suit aren't really relevant and so he should try for slam with 3 fewer AKQ points in total than he would otherwise.

I currently use AKQ slam points (3/2/1) in most of my relay auctions and find them quite effective. They are a good measure of general hand strength, and are most useful opposite balanced inquiring hands. If relayer has a weak short suit, often an RKC approach will be better. I use something similar to Hog's approach, adapted originally from Moscito, although we've made some changes: - Base is 6 AKQ points. Count all honors, even singletons. With enough to GF and a control poor hand, we will tend to GF anyway, so the base response is really 6 or fewer 321's (5's are common too, and 4's very rarely). This can be annoying, but for now we like getting the initial GF started rather than going through a negative response and bidding game later. - We zoom into AKQ points if we hit the "top" of our shape relay. If 3D showed 5422 and 3H+ were not other shapes, we'd play that 3D was 5422 with min 321's (6 or fewer), 3H was 7, 3S was 8, etc. - When using denial cues, we scan suits ordered by length but don't scan singleton or void suits. In the first pass 0/3 of AKQ to stop, 1-2 honors to skip. In the 2nd pass through the suits, only answer suits that showed 1-2 in the first pass (stop on 1, skip with 2). The 3rd pass shows jacks. - if opener signs off with 3N or 4D end signal, responder can show lots of extras by bidding his 321 control strength in steps starting at Base+3 (9). So 3N(to play)-4C(9), or 4D(10), etc. Over 4D(end)-4S(9), or 4N(10), etc. After responder has shown his AKQ points or answered a denial cue bid, we originally played that all non-step bids were to play and the step bid asked for (more) denial cues. Recently I've switched to this: If responder has answered AKQ points or a denial cue bidding 3N or less, 4D is still the end signal. Pass or 3N is still to play. Step asks further, S+1 thru S+4 are RKC's. Essentially this gives meaning to sequences after 3H(4432 & 6 321's) - 3S would ask DCBs, but 4m is not to play since we are game forced. Here 4C would be RKC1, 4D would be the end signal, and 4H+ would be more RKC bids. Basically, whenever 4D is available as a non-step bid, we play that the end signal is on and all extra bids besides the cheapest step are available for RKC asks, even if you've answered 321 points already. This helps with hands that wanted to ask RKC but responder inconveniently zoomed into showing 321s by having the top shape.

Why did North bid 3NT when he didn't have a heart stop? North asked about the XX and it tended to deny a fit for opener. Absent agreements about which bids were forcing after the XX, North gambled 3N since it seemed likely South had the heart stop. South's most likely hand type is 15-18 balanced, which often has a stopper (although this is not required) and seemed to have a fair bit of heart length given shortness in North and West hands. In fact, South did have a fair bit of length, and even a stopper or two! Double followed by cue would be a very strong balanced hand (I agree this could have made the subsequent auction difficult). Double followed by jump suit is GF, and X followed by non-jump new suit is NF but too good to overcall. We hadn't discussed agreements after the business XX since it hadn't come up before. Does anybody play that (1M)-3M as a stopper ask with a solid suit could also have the suit opened?

Our auction was certainly not repeated. Opener had psyched 1♥ (of course) on a flat zero count. (1♥)-X*-(XX)-3N * X= 15+ balanced or very strong 1-suiter, XX likely business(?) (P)-P-(X)-P (P)-XX-AP This was the (approximate) hand:[hv=n=saxxhjdjxxcaqjtxx&w=skqjxxhxxdaxxckxx&e=sxxxhxxxdxxxcxxxx&s=sxhakqt9xxxdkqt8c]399|300|3NXX by North low ♣ lead[/hv] On the club lead to the K and A, we scored up 3NXX+4 for 2600. Lucky they didn't lead a spade or we'd have been held to only 10 tricks and 1400 would have been a cold bottom vs 1430 for a more normal 6♥ making 6. I'm still open to hearing about the expert treatment for likely psych situations like this where you're very very likely you're missing game if it passes out.

2nd seat r/w MP club game and the first opponent opens your suit... [hv=d=e&v=n&s=s2hakqt9743dkqt8c]133|100|Scoring: MP (1♥)-?[/hv] I'm pretty sure this isn't the standard overcall problem. What's your call?

I thought delayed Texas went through Smolen? 1N-2♣ 2♦-3♠* GF with 4♠5+♥ 3N-4♦* showing 6+♥ (transfer) I seem to recall a direct 4♦ (1N-2C-2D-4D) was something else, but I don't recall what now.

Assuming partner wouldn't Stayman on this sequence without exactly 4 hearts, we can guess from the discouraging club at T1 that declarer is likely 7312 or 7321. I certainly don't want to break hearts, so I'll lead a low diamond - I suppose this pays off a little to declarer holding Kx♦ and getting a useful heart pitch, but when he's got a singleton diamond (which seems more likely given partner's likely club length), it could be the only safe exit and it attacks his entries before he can set up the Q♣.

I strongly believe that more than 1 cheap bid for unlimited openings is a bad idea, wasting space that could be used to show much more common "normal" hands. In this vein, I'd suggest including the 16+ 4441's in your strong club. Everyone else who plays precision manages to get it to work including these hands, so there shouldn't be a problem. As for the 11-15 version of 4441's, I really think these aren't common enough to be worth devoting a special opening bid (not even a rare higher level bid like 2♦ that precision uses for these and frequently (43)15 shapes too). As such, I'd just throw the 4441's into 1N (if 13-15) or 1♥(4+♠ rarely instead of 5+) or 1♦ (0+) based on judgment. If you really feel like these are a problem, GCC allows you to use 2♣ or 2♦ openings to show them, but I'm not a fan. From the rest of system, it seems like you've got 1♦ and 1♠ available to show these hands: 1) 5+♥ 2) 5+♦ unbalanced 3) minors 4/5+ 4) 4441's 5) 13-15 5m(332) 6) 11-12 balanced (if you want to open these) A fairly typical approach might be to use 1♦ for most heart hands including 4441's with hearts (nice with 1♥ GF relay), and possibly also including 13-15 5m332's (if you really don't want to open those 1N). This is a lot of hands, but it's the cheapest bid so it should be ok. Then use 1♠ for just diamonds and/or minors. If you have specific parts of the system you're particularly interested in keeping, you might let us know so we can give suggestions around those.

Two suited preempts, where 2♥ shows a weak two bid, 4-9ish, with 4+♠ and 5+♥. B) (For the regular 2♥ preempts, we have to pass, open 1♥ light in precision, or open 3♥ if the colors and the hand merit)

Is this in the range where you've got "some extras" but not enough to bid 3♦ instead of relaying with 3♣ over lebensohl? Or is this an argument that 4♣ needs to be natural above, but 4♦ can be a cue of some sort? Getting back to making North's owed call instead of just 4♥, is 4N blackwood in hearts or quantitative in NT?

3-3 break is 35%, K onside would bring that down to 17%. Less since the club was chosen as the most attractive lead, implying LHO lacks the AK♥ or KQ♠ or various other holdings that are harder to quantify.

What about the line where you play for 2-2 diamonds, winning the K in hand, cashing 2 high spades, and then playing to the diamond ace and unblocking the 3rd diamond on a high heart before hopefully running diamonds? This resolves to the same squeeze chances Frances mentioned in her first case I think, without needing as much luck in the diamond suit (Q singleton or 2-2).

Thanks everyone. I felt like I was obligated to make a skip bid and eventually bid 4♣ (which worked out horribly). Next time I'll know and I'll make the confusing "Stop.... Pass" call :rolleyes:.

In precision I think there's no strong reason for a weak long minor response - just pass. Since partner is limited if you have a very weak and distributional hand the opps will bail you out or wish they had. So if you like playing 1M-3m as invitational (reasonable), maybe over 1M-1N-2OM or 1M-1N-2M you could play a 3m bid is a help suit game try for the last bid major. This gives you your courtesy raise as a less specific (or more specific) invitation. Personally I think preemption via Bergen raises is quite valuable opposite limited openers and consequently I play 1M-3m as fitted raises. Therefore I play 1M-1N-2X-3m as invitational, but that's just my preference.

1♠-2♠ 3♦-4♠ (help suit try, accepted) seems like a perfectly normal auction. If he's rather call it a limit raise, 1♠-1N(f) 2♦-3♠ 4♠ should work just fine too.

In my style, this is a clear 2♦ rebid. Jump shifts to the 3 level show a good hand (say 13-15 if you open 10-15), and lots of shape. Some people do this on good 5/5 hands, but I feel like 6/5 should be more typical. A jump rebid (3♠) would show a similar maximum, a 7+ suit, and shortness.