onoway

Anybody have any info or links to someplace which discusses how to deal with canape bidding? I have found sites which touch on what they are but nothing which offers strategies to deal with them or where the weaknesses are.

etc. The problem with this is then you really will have a hard time finding people to play with you if you are of a "lesser' standing. Sometime take a look and see how people who are superb players fare when they play in the BIL tourneys with BIL members..often it is carnage. One session could easilly lose you a whack of imps. This would tend to make it extremely difficult for people to advance, I think. Unless once you crossed the magic line there was no going back? It might lead to a degree of abuse of beginners with people trying to whomp them to raise their imp scores..there already are a number of people who freewheel through main looking for 'easy ' marks and who leave as soon as they see they may not win. So you would have "experts" who really did have x number of imps, but all or mostly gained at the expense of novices and beginners. As a result the newby's are demoralized and disheartened. A half a level would be fine, it's when people jump a couple of levels it is frustrating! Perhaps a couple of levels within intermediate...brown, blue, and green? c b a? 3 2 1? When playing in main, I change to private..so far no problems and at least that way I am not leading people to believe I have skills I don't have. So far, there has been no problem finding a game, and no complaints. However, I don't go out of my way to sit at a table with all experts, either. After all, isn't the point of all this to have fun? Sometimes it's as though you are presented with a shiny new Porsche and when you go to drive it you find the motor has been replaced with one from a washing machine...perfectly valid and worthy in itself, but not in that context. :angry:

Would someone with more clout than I have please explain to beginner/novice/intermediate players that they do themselves and their partners no favors by claiming to be advanced? It gets complicated because there is such a mishmash in main and elsewhere of people claiming to be experts who don't know how to transfer or even what Stayman is. However, I once saw a profile with novice on it which also sported a star. (An extreme example, but I know of other expert players who downplay their expertise). It can be difficult for beginners to find games sometimes, many times they are not welcomed with open arms in the general bridge areas ..which is why BIL!! But by lying about your knowlege and current skill levels, you annoy people by not knowing basic things you should know if you are advanced or better (whether you play them or not) and you won't learn anything. If you have no concept of flying a plane, sitting in a cockpit of a Boeing 747 as copilot is probably not the best place to start. I have no problem playing with beginners or novices or anyone else ( even experts if they are willing to put up with me!) if I have a clue what I can expect from them (more or less). Everyone has bad days, but c'mon, let's have a little truth in advertising out there.

Happy Birthday Kathryn ! Hope all your finesses work and all your tourney players stay connected and happy :lol: Have a great one!

Chess is a very simple game to learn the basics but it can become as complex as the abilities of the players make it. Bridge has developed into a game where memorization of bidding codes and conventions has overtaken and to a degree devalued playing skills, imo. at least at levels of the average /+ player. Often good players don't even bother playing out the hands..they play one or two rounds of cards and claim. Perhaps in another 50 years, bidding will have developed to the point where that is virtually all the game is. There are indeed players out there who don't belong to ACBL. My family all play bridge. None of them nor any of their bridge friends belong to ACBL, They may not even know it exists. All my neices and nephews play bridge, all Goren based. A couple of them could give most of the advanced I have met on BBO a very good run for their money, even without the toys, ( They'd be crunched by experts, obviously) I also have met a couple of people who successfully play excellent competitive modern bridge and their kids won't go near the game. Since I see a couple of "dynasties" on BBO it's probably coincidence. Have you ever considered taking up Spades? You might prefer the game. Is it very ego building to suggest to somebody who doesn't want to work out 100 pages of special agreements with a dedicated partner - should they be able to find one- that they perhaps best go play some other game? Aside from reflecting the rather odd notion that it is ok to be condescending to people who maybe don't share your values, I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish. All I am doing is trying to bring forward a point of view which I know is definitely out there and which won't otherwise be represented. OTOH it is a perfect example of exactly why some people won't go near duplicate bridge more than once.

My understanding is that Goren became so hugely popular because he evolved a system that anyone could sit down and understand in short order. I think it is because everything has become so complicated that bridge has lost ground, it used to be much more popular than it is now. It has reverted to being a sort of " elitist" game, people have to meet certain criteria to be able to enjoy success playing..for one, lots and lots of time to learn/practice. I have played bridge off and on since I was about 12, and watching vugraphs is a bewildering experience, many times. People talk about a pair having 100 pages of agreements.. and there still are misunderstandings and miscues. Why would anyone want to get into a game that needs to be that complicated? Perhaps one approach might be to have a totally split game, one highly regulated game for people who are interested in playing just for fun and some challenge on a casual basis and the other more of a free for all where a multitude of systems are allowed. Right now there isn't anywhere for people to go that they are "safe" to play a relatively simple form of bridge.

This is most helpful. Thanks. Perhaps we need to ask teams (and pairs, since that will help pairs find likeminded pairs to form teams) to identify the system they are playing when they register. Then anyone who cares to, can see what they might be playing against and prepare..so it will be a learning curve for some but they won't be blindsided. Perhaps it would be helpful to have links to defenses against the less familiar systems or treatments which will be used. So the next question which comes up is, does anyone have a link for defending against a system using canape bids? This IS going to come up.

Well, modified sayc was my term not theirs. because I understand it to have its roots (rather well buried!) in Goren. It is quite a bit more complicated than that. The very little I have seen looks to me like a cross between sayc and precision. Lots of artificial bids.. I don't want to limit the sorts of things people can play if it is reasonable to think that the play will be able to proceed with a decent chance of everyone being able to enjoy themselves and play to the best of their ability. Certainly there are no plans to deny teams the chance to play Precision or Acol, for example. Precision has enough variations, it seems, that perhaps it could be as difficult for the average /+ player to deal with that as anything new, so this may be looking for grief where none exists. I just don't know. Also I very much doubt that they have anything organized in terms of a defense against it, they are still working on the system itself, to my understanding. Is this something they are responsible for? That seems a bit weird to me and would not have crossed my mind. Jilly is expressing a reaction for sure some players will share.. On the other hand, if this would pass the the ACBL standards I would feel a lot more comfortable telling people to " live with it". With that in mind, I will take up jtfanclub on his kind offer to check it out. Perhaps a HEAD's UP when people go to register will be all that's needed to take care of any potential problem. I appreciate the input, thank you all.

Well, Todd, you seem to have a bit of trouble understanding the question. I want to know if there are likely to be problems, if so what the problems might likely be and what if anything I should do about them. To suggest such concerns are ridiculous and almost offensive is bizarre. In reply to rational and helpful responses, I am asking that cc's be posted and I am sure that these teams will do so. Does that mean anything is legal because it is in a cc? The thing is, matches are made up with usually less than a day for teams to prepare for their specific match, as many teams will morph from week to week. We will have people of widely diverse abilities playing. I am expecting (hoping!) that the more adept will take everything in stride. Since I do know that a number of the bids are twisted from their " standard" meaning I am expecting some of the other players to feel " hard done by" even if cc's are posted and alerts made. When people feel unhappy they are apt to complain. If the fact that a cc is posted and alerts made means that all is legal, then there is likely to be no problem (for the directors). Is that the case?

ok. First of all I am not a qualified director, and that is made clear in the match setup. All we are trying to do is provide a venue for people who want to play in team matches to do so. However, we are trying to keep some semblance of reasonable bidding and play in order for everyone to enjoy the games. That said, we are very likely going to have at least one pair or team playing in the matches who are going to be using a modified form of sayc..I can't say exactly HOW modified because the system is on a spreadsheet and I don't have the software to open it. I am concerned that this is going to lead to some questions. I would really like to have some idea if there is going to be a problem or not, and if so, what might be a reasonable way of handling it. The people in question have a good rep for alerting and explaining bids. If somebody who IS a qualified person would have the time (and software) to glance over the spreadsheet (I have the link) and give me some feedback about any potential problems, if any, I would sleep better at night. We aren't planning on starting the matches for a little while yet.

couldn't get the link to work,,,just get a blank page and clicking noises

"Doesn't sound to me like "the first use they can think of is for war" — except maybe for those people who sees "the ***** military" as the boogie man in everything. " Hmmm it seemed to me that "stealth military devices " implied something other than peaceful co-existence for mutual advantage. Merriam-Webster's dictionary: Main Entry: 1mil·i·tary Pronunciation: \ˈmi-lə-ˌter-ē\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin militaris, from milit-, miles soldier Date: 15th century 1 a: of or relating to soldiers, arms, or war b: of or relating to armed forces; especially : of or relating to ground or sometimes ground and air forces as opposed to naval forces 2 a: performed or made by armed forces b: supported by armed force 3: of or relating to the army and "Media folks need to explain that scientific advances are good for something since simply advancing knowledge doesn't sell. Also, the scientists want more funding. Lots more if they can get it. Explaining that it will help us go bomb someone is always a winner." too true, Ken. Now if the only people able to use it were Lamont Cranston clones it would indeed be an advance for humanity! :) "

I am bemused to see that the first use they can think of for this is for war...we are such a confused species..we could do so much and all we can think of , it seems, is newer and different ways to get at each other to do harm.. http://www.livescience.com/technology/0808...ing-device.html

I noticed the other day when I subbed halfway through a tourney, that the (rather disastrous) scores for the first half of the tourney were inherited along with the scores for the hands I actually played. It isn't a major thing, but it is a little horrifying to see -52 at the end of a tourney when the hands I actually played would have been close to even. (Pay for open tourneys can sometimes be tough for intermediates :)) I wonder if this is part of the reason it is sometimes so hard to find subs and if this could somehow be dealt with differently?

Since you mention horse racing and harness racing it seems that there might be some reason to do an equestrian Olympics. I am told they have dropped the 3 day event and the cross country, but those are only two of the possibilities. Besides the above, and while keeping the jumping, dressage and driving events,you could have chuckwagon and chariot races. cattle penning, cowboy polo (or even regular polo) steeplechasing, working cowhorse (where the horse/rider have to manoever the calf in a pattern much as sheepdogs do with sheep in their trials) and a sort of gymkhana champion of the 103 gymkhana events such as barrel racing, pole bending, novelty jumping courses etc. It could include vaulting on horse back and trick riding. It could also include jousting on horseback and all the events which have now mostly been consigned to history. Other events could be freestyle, where a horse without saddle/bridle or rider performs a routine to music (trainer is in arena so human element still there). There should be horse pulls for the big guys. Not sure if I have missed anything (aside from deliberately avoiding the controversial roping events). Think that could fill up a week? :)

Tonight we were trying to have a team match and three of the 8 players kept getting either frozen or disconnected, to the point the match eventually got cancelled. It seems that it always is a lot worse when vugraphs are on. Is there any way to track this so maybe something can be done?

As an intermediate, I feel highly privileged to have commentators at all to make the play more comprehensible and just generally more entertaining. I do look to see who is commentating where and generally decide which table I am going to watch on that basis, and have rarely been disappointed (and if so, I go to the other table or back to play, no big deal.) I must admit sympathy for commentators trying to fill a long gap of dead airspace while the players are thinking sometimes. It is a very uneasy and difficult thing to do, and not all the commentators are perhaps privy to juicy tidbits about the players. In those cases I think it ungenerous not to cut them a little slack, I personally have no problem if they stray from the bridge a little at such times. It is a special treat when the commentators remember that a lot of us have no clue that there is such a thing as "eloping" in bridge terms and explain it, or how polish club works or whatever. It would be unfortunate though if people geared everything down for the less advanced player, genereally there seems to be a good mix, and I have had no problems when something seems weird, asking one of the commentators about it, they have always been very accommodating. When you have a lot of people doing anything, some are bound to be more adept and comfortable. By and large I think BBO has a wonderful group and I for one am very appreciative they will share their time and expertise. So from one, at least, kudos to Fred and Roland and the commentators and thanks !! :)

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them - particularly verbs: they're the proudest - adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs - however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!' 'Would you tell me, please,' said Alice, 'what that means?' 'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.' 'That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone. 'When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'I always pay it extra.' 'Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark.

If the two missing trump are in the same hand as 4♦ (or even 3) then you are fine,but it would be a bit hair raising to play 3 rounds of ♦ before touching the trump.

This is a lot fancier than the ones we get here, as far as I know. Dunno what caused it but it's rather nice..at least from above. It seems unlikely it would look like much at ground level. Maybe someone with way too much time on their hands should take up bridge. Anyway, something for all the mathmeticians out there.:( http://www.astroengine.com/?p=291

When you say, " normally in this sort of situation" ....etc. you seem to imply you often make such comments. The OTHER side of the coin is the rudeness of players who constantly are haranguing players to hurry up, although there may be no especial reason to do so. There are many reasons for a hesitation..a sticky mouse being a very common one which is at least as frustrating to the player as to the opps waiting. It seems to me that someone who goes looking for problems generally finds them whether they are there or not. :rolleyes:

"I have no respect for the persistent complainers. It's just another case of the 'entitlement' mentality where some parents expect the public schools to take a responsibility that belongs to the parents. " I guess the subject of the thread was too far back for you to remember what it was... :) Of course, it isn't every family who is able to manage either private school or home schooling ..such as most single parents..so I guess too bad for the kids with the bad planning to be born to those parents. After all, why should we expect anything much from the school system anyway? It's not like we are paying for it.....oh........wait a minute...... Btw I don't deny there are some excellent teachers out there. My youngest daughter went to a public school where history was taught by a historian, phys ed by an ex olympic gymnast, art by a working artist etc. Some private schools would drool over the staff there. Every teacher there was teaching something he or she had a real interest in and enthusiasm for. That's contagious. That's the way it should be, imo, but so often teachers are in such and such a class because they had some free time in the schedule. Not fair to teacher or kids.

http://www.thehumorarchives.com/joke/Physics_Exam

EricK Posted on Jul 20 2008, 04:15 AM " I can understand from a teacher's point of view why they would not want the parents to "teach ahead". A child who is bored because he is being taught stuff he already knows can be very disruptive, yet giving that child his own, more advanced, work to do, separate from rest of the class, can lead to that child being picked on by the other kids (and leads to more work for the teachers, who are already overworked as it is)." This is PRECISELY the point I was trying to make. Where, in that paragraph, is there a concern for that child's education? Are a teacher's only options for the brighter and/or more advanced kid to penalize either by isolating or by trying to force back into the mainstream and pretending he or she is NOT ahead of the class, as though it's something shameful? Definitely there are far too many kids in most teacher's classes. However, there are ways within this which can operate to everyone's benefit, one being to have the kids who are ahead help the kids who are behind. This was very common in the days of mixed classes. Kids learn better from other kids anyway, many times, AND it establishes a value in the eyes of both the kid who is ahead and the other kids. The teacher has demonstrated respect for accomplishment and it brings into play on a very basic level, the concept of social responsibility. . For sure this requires a bit of time and monitoring, esp. at the beginning, but at least this is constructive time which is spent otherwise in dealing with the problems mentioned above. Some teachers still do this naturally, others are horrified at the idea that a kid can do what they do, sometimes better.Also, this is only one way of dealing with the situation, there are others. This whole question brings into focus, exactly what is the point of education supposed to be? Hopefully NOT the idea that there is only one way to get there from here, when there might be any number of ways to do so. Some need the straightest route possible, others enjoy exploring along the way.

Insecure teachers have always tried to limit what involvement the parents have with their kid's education. I ran into this when I was in school, when my father corrected incorrect factual information concerning agriculture, much to the teacher's ( and principal's!)indignation. Years later I had one suggest I was a bad parent because my kids were not supposed to be able to read before they got to school.. it wasn't important that for them books were sources of delight and information. The teacher found it inconvenient. Two examples, there are many. It is so much easier if the kids are in lockstep and don't challenge. It isn't just in schools either. I was visiting someone in a university office one day when there was a huge kafuffle next door. Apparently a graduate student had had the temerity to challenge his prof about something. The prof, ( who had tenure), offered the highly pertinent information that if said student didn't shut up and agree he would toss him down the stairs. (This same prof refused to talk to me for several months after I beat him at chess). Good teachers don't need to teach in a sterile environment. Unfortunately really good teachers are not the norm.