Bermy

I dont know your role or your agenda but Perhaps that explains why Gib bidding is in such a mess. We have to endure the politics of its programmers, as they have their own agenda (as this conversation proves) Few would agree that Bergen is that bad, or leb that good, but they stick with their agenda I have not even begun to discuss some of the other conventions yet, wait, and the way Gib handles take outs and penalties. Then we get a gib that cant bid leb any better than a novice, and wastes all its 3 level bids........... Then we get excuses that you would rather die than get this right. What a level of incompetence! I hope ACBL are listenning, but I guess its only Gib's dollar twenty five that they are really interested in.

cute quiz 012123? Can any Precision player out there tell what sequence that represents?

U know, the hardest thing about Precision is that the bidding sequences and asking bids are so hard to learn, but so useful. I call them steps, to simplify them as that is exactly what they are, and then you have to learn little numbers, like 012123. Easy really if you know how, but who has got the time for all that these days. Really, we are all playing with laptops. When I played with the witch she had her notes with her (play and learn) but at the club she was on her own. I tell you what, once she saw that she could read my cards, 2/1 was out the window. I really think more should try Precision these days, yes it maybe a little old fashioned, however it is so universal, and in China almost everyone plays it. And it is so different. You will see, at the bridge tournaments, suddenly your results improve. I know. I do play a lot with them and they stick to CC Wei standards too. I think it’s the universal language that we need to play strong club. Learning those sequences does give you an advantage, but if one starts deviating away from Wei one has to find a permanent partner, losing an important ingredient in the social structure of bridge, that any two players can get together and play. That is what I mean by standards. Wei sets them for us in Precision.

lol and on and on and on.......

And so the Gib way is better? Gib does not bid like "any" expert I have ever played with or against. Well maybe like BBO self evaluation of "expert" perhaps Join our Fanboy club, we are having such a great time here, Im sure we can win, I might even make you secretary of Defence

opinion noted,I keep repeating CP works with basic Wei (I do support the universal language), and I have read your comments on Precision, that you like Wei you may have no further interest in what I have to say ,then you have no business in this feed, others are calling on me for more information. I lie between keeping it simple for those who believe Precision is too complicated, and those who wish to tear me up because it is too simple. I therefore plan to feed my ideas slowly and build up to Control Precision Plus, releasing new ideas and discussing old points and weaknesses as we go.

The Max Min, 1♦ Opening Usually a weak hand The 1♦ opening is our catchall opening bid for all those hands that do not qualify for any of our other opening bids. You will find yourself opening 1♦ more often than any other, so learn and understand it well, you will be bidding competitively with the opps. Because it contains our weak opening hands, this type of bid will occur most often. It is not difficult and many of the sequences may become quite familiar to you 2/1 and Sayc bidders who open 1 of a minor for weak opening hands. Since the opening 1NT takes cares for most of your 13-15 Hcp hands, 1♦ is usually weak, and is mainly there to enter the bidding early. A common mistake is to open 1♦ with a hand that qualifies for a 1 No Trump opening. This practise is not recommended in Control Precision, as you will have no practical rebid. If your hand holds 4 or 5x ♦ but qualifies for 1NT don’t be tempted to open 1♦. Let us try to work out what hands gets caught in this “catchall” net. We first eliminate all hands that qualify for 1NT and 1 of major openings, as well as all hands that may qualify for a 2♣ opening, and this is what we are left with. Weak (11-12 hcp) 1 or 2x 4 card majors No Trump distribution (No single, void etc) 5 or more ♦ and or 5x♦4x♣ 5x♦and 4x♦ Strong (13-15) 5x ♦and a 4card suite, with 2 doubletons 6 or more ♦ 4441 hands any singleton 5440 hands void in major. 5D431 hands with singleton Reader should take note that opener only has to rebid and inform as to whether he is in the weak, or strong and the approximate distribution will become clear to the Control bidder. When weak, you are very weak, and when strong the Control bidder should remain alert to this short suite information. We do reserve however our 2NT and 3D responses for strong hands that do not have such a short suite feature. They will always be 5422 with 5x minor. Control Bids for 1♦ 1♥ 6 -15 hcp with 4x H bid H when holding 4xS too. 1♠ 6 –15 hcp with 4x♠ (denies 4x♥ unless 5x♠). 1NT 7-10 hcp no 4 card major 2♣ Strong with ♣ (forcing)* Safe to Bid 2♦ Strong with ♦ (forcing)* Very safe to Bid 2♥ Weak with long ♥ to play. Unsafe to Bid 2♠ Weak with long ♠ to play. Unsafe to Bid 2NT 11-12 no major instruction to bid on with 13-15 or pass without. 3♣ Weak with ♣ , to play. 3♦ Weak with♦ , to play 3NT To play. 13+ hcp, no interest in slam. * One should remember, that while these bids are forcing for the blind bidder, the Control bidder might pass at any time he feels he has enough information and does not wish to continue. We open 1♦ whenever we are weak, 11-12 hcp and have either a 4 card major or a long diamond suite and even sometimes when we have 5x♣ with a NT distribution. The control bidder will almost always bid his best suite, or a 4-card major as a relay bid. Although this suite bid is honest, it merely serves as a relay controlling bid, asking for more information. He has his weak, intermediate and strong controlling bids. The most common of these is the 1 of a major relay bid. This is the bid that begins a search for a quick major suite fit, in order to play at the next level. The relay bid may be quite weak, and as little as 6Hcp. As the control bidder always has the option of passing, any response is now forcing for at least 1 round and may not be passed unless the opponents intervene. Strong controlling bids like 2♦ are forcing all the way to game by the blind bidder. Needless to say, the only dangerous bid is pass, and one should be reminded that 1♦ opening in our system can be as little as a singleton ♦. For this reason, we allow the control bidder to relay with any 4 card major and a very low point count. Control bidder may be weak with a long suite of his own, He may use a weak jump shift, and to indicate that he wishes to play in the suite of his own and that the blind bidder should pass. 1♦ – 1♥ (4x♥ any 6-15 hcp hand) Opener now rebids 1♠… 11-12 hcp and 4x♠. 1NT …11-12 hcp no 4-4 fit. 2♣ … 11-12 hcp 5x♦ and 4x♣. 2♦ … 11-12 hcp 5 or more ♦ 2♥… 11-12 4x support 2 ♠ …13-15 no support 4xS and a short suite 2NT …13-15 no major fit and no singleton or void 3 ♣… 13-15 with single/void 3♦… strong hand with long ♦ 3♥ …strong hand with outside single or void. 1♦ -1♠ (4 or more ♠ but denies 4x♥ unless 5♠ -4♥) Opener now rebids 1NT 11-12 hcp no 4-4 fit. 2♣ 11-12 hcp 5x♦ and 4x♣. 2♦ 11-12 hcp 5 or more ♦ 2♥ 11-12 hcp 4x♥ 2♠ 11-12 support 4x♠ 2NT 13-15 no major fit and no singleton or void 3♣ 13-15 with single/void 3♦ 13-15 strong hand with long ♦ 3♥ 13-15 hands with outside single or void. 3♠ 13-15 support and outside single or void. Now you may have 2 types of hand, either a weak 11-12 point hand, or maybe something stronger, that did not qualify for a 1NT opening. When you are weak, you want to get out of the bidding as soon as possible, so you either support the major, or bid spades (when holding 4) or 1NT. Repeating 2♦ would deny a major and show a long ♦ suite. 2 ♣ would be the same with a 5-4. The problem the control bidder faces, is to get as much information from the blind bidder as quickly as possible. He must assume that the opener is weak, and place the contract as soon as possible. His strongest Control bid is 2♦ and asks to continue bidding until 3NT is reached, the Control bidder himself may choose to pass earlier, if he is dissatisfied with the response. A jump shift rebid would alert the Control bidder of the existence of a short suite and 13-15 Hcp. and would be a splinter in that short suite. Otherwise, the control bidding is very straightforward. Bid 4 card suites upward, until a 2 level fit is found or play in 1NT. 1NT response denies a 4 card major and is around 10 hcp. Now I wish to show you what happens when the opener is stronger and is in the 13-15hcp ranges. This is where our entire system gets interesting. I wish to introduce the “Principal of jump rebids after 1♦ openings” When we open 1♦ we only jump rebid when holding a singleton or void short suite and 13-15 high card points. Otherwise rebid 3♦ showing 13-15 with 5 or more♦ . Control bidder will now spot the existence of this short suite because a jump or jump shift bid has occurred, and will be aware that his partner’s hand has extra features. Now he will be better armed for that critical contract placement. As I have explained earlier all balanced 13-15 hands have been taken out of the equation. So now the jump shows the presence of a singleton (or void). This is why we can open 1♦ for all 4441 hands any singleton 13-15 Hcp. This principal of short suite jumps, allows us to open 1♦ with a singleton ♦, and eliminates CC Wei’s problem with 4441 hands. We no longer have a need to place these hands into the 2♦ opening, thus freeing up that bid for the versatile multi 2♦, which I will deal with in the next chapter. We can jump or shift bid or even cue bid, and the Controller will be able to identify the singleton very accurately, depending on the situation at the table. We can even introduce a convention to identify the exact location of the singleton on strong slam going sequences. If it’s a void, then the blind bidder overbids again, to show the void. This is what I call the Blind Mad Bid, its because when the blind bidder goes mad, its usually because he has seen something. However if a blind bidder has seen something, it must be nothing, a void. However, the reader should be aware of the consequences of bidding with these short suite revelations. Like all good bridge conventions, when we have something good, we have a problem elsewhere. We have to compromise those hands that hold 1x four card major and 5x♦ with 2 doubletons. These bids have been compromised, and the NT and 3♦ remain open to help. This makes bidding 4 card fits quite difficult, when you may have 13-15 hcp. So after opening 1 ♦ and partner bids say 1♥, one may be tempted to raise the bidding to 3♥ with 13-15 as Mr. Wei recommended. I suggest that you make a single suite raise when 13 or 14 or bid 3♦ when very strong 15 hcp. 2NT is also available to you when it is clear that you have a major suite misfit. This contradiction of ideas is not a mystery really. In bidding the Control Bidder has to figure this out, using deduction, and perhaps a little guess (not uncommon in bridge) to deduce maybe "Why the hounds are not barking?" One can even introduce a convention for bidding the 1♦ -2♣ /♦ sequences. This would mean that any normal raise would show the normal weak hand while any jump in a major would show a splinter singleton in the suite bid with 13-15 hcp. This convention would work like this. 1♦ – 2♦ (no 4-card major strong and forcing) Opener now bids 2♥… with 4x ♥ and 11-12hcp 2♠ …. with 4x♠ and 11-12 hcp 2NT.. balanced with 11-12 both majors stopped. 3♣ … 5x♦ and 4x ♣ 11-12hcp. 3♦ .. 5x ♦ 11-12hcp. 3♥ singleton or void splinter in H 13-15 hcp 3♠ singleton or void splinter in ♠ 13-15 hcp. 3NT 13-15 with no singleton or void. 4♣ singleton or void in ♣ (be wary of robbing control bidder of his 3NT option) 4♦ singleton or void in♦ (be wary of robbing control bidder of his 3NT option) Once again I have demonstrated exactly how the control bidder can exactly identify what type of hand the opener has, and place the contract correctly. This control bidding does not only work in competitive bidding, but helps your lead and defence as well. What is the value of knowing about your partner’s singleton, before you lead? Bidding 1♦ with intervention. We live in a real world, and our opponents don’t usually just pass and let us bid alone, so we have to keep our control over the table despite their intervention. Intervention, like in all our system, changes everything. Now pass, double, redouble and cue bids come into play, and so everything else changes accordingly. When LHO overcalls our 1♦ opening, double and redoubles and cue bids become our strong controlling bids. Now any other bid, including 2 and 3 level bids are weak, usually to play, and are not forcing on the opener. Even if the overcall is a strong pre-empt, this principal remains the same. We double or cue bid to show the blind bidder that our team holds the stronger balance of points, and that blind bidder can safely bid on. Blind bidder, who knows how to play bridge, may only leave the double in, when very strong in opponent’s suite and wishes to penalise the overcall. This is a blind decision so trumps must be good, and must be made with the current state of Vulnerability in mind, and the nature and scoring of the tournament. edit B-)

I am happy to continue these feeds, as long as enough of you are interested. Please feel free to ask any question or questions about CP (stick to the subject please), however I won’t take criticism, you are welcome to play bridge any way you like. I do not need to argue with any other suggestions, as it is a waste of productive time. If you find variations to the Wei original, as I have said, yes they do exist, if you prefer to play the Wei or any other way. Please highlight any misprints, Ok I will start new feeds whenever they get too long, and will return to old feeds to answer any of your questions, best to read sequentially. Nice comments are welcome, and don’t necessarily need to be answered or commented on. The more nice comments I get the more you will motivate me. Lets get on with the 1 diamond opening.

You sound like that partner I refuse to play with, You guys should get together. ha, he wishes he could have me back as a partner. You see, the time to discuss conventions is on the way to the club, and the time to argue is on the way home. When at the club playing, get on with playing, not arguing. And if you miss a simple penalty double, because of this...... Find a new partner. This convention is such a waste of productive time.

" "Generally, a Double is for penalty" Really?? Perhaps you should go read the convention again. and again and again and again. Read it, you are so stubborn. And very very slow indeed. Read the word "generally" it does not apply to the majority of people it applies to the meaning of the double...It means for example that of opps overcall say 2 club, the double is take out...slow? Secondly all notes say "default double is penalty. Thirdly, TAKE OUTS SIMPLY DONT WORK HERE. Geee you are slow and stubborn.......carry on arguing, and on and on and on its because of players like you that we have to endure such drivel.

This subject of penalty doubles vs take outs is a huge one, and one that North Gib simply does not get right. At the low levels Gib does not understand the trap pass and how to reopen with a double. Gib does not understand (and neither do I when playing with Gib) when a double is penalty or take out, usually getting it almost 100% wrong. Then uses take outs at the 4 level, (after a neg bid) so that I can have nowhere to go to, and pass is not an option. Each double has to be judged on its own merit (almost impossible) as there is no real differentiation, and most are treated as take outs. Sometimes to the point where it is simply ridiculous. It has got to the point where almost every time I want to double a contract, I live in fear Gib with take me out. I cannot play with a partner I cannot trust, can you? I raised the issue of leb, because its should be clear that a double in this situation, 1NT after opps overcall (not 2Clubs of course) should most definitively be penalty, if one is to use this convention, and if one is not going to use it too. It should be penalty double because its "part of the convention" You of course proved that I am right and it is part of the convention, however it is such a bad convention and so badly written, that even you produced doubts.

Have it your way, and so the argument continues on and on. I didnt say I cant or wont play it, surely from what you have read, I do understand this convention and do play with it. What im saying is reward vs effort. Its simply not worth it if you cant get those doubles right. Take out simply doesnt work, so why do we have to play with them? Gib is a learning tool, kids play with it, and so when they are ready they go forward and find partners who play the same way. That is how trends are set, and Gib plays its role. I am not prepared to teach a novice for hours and hours of the merits of leb, when I can spend that time more constructivly. Lets teach them how to double the opps poor contract before we waste all this effort arguing the merits or demerits of leb.

Oops I almost forgot to mention, its great in competitive auctions.

What better treatments, I dont see them, not on Gib anyway. What you are saying is that since you are finding your contracts without it, no one needs it. I can tell you, after 40 years of winning bridge at national level, I still need it, when you have a 9 card fit nothing is more accurate. Of course I can play without it, but why? It is using 3 level bids that have no real useful function anyway. You use Truscott but not Bergen, what is the difference really, the passed hand?

What is Gib and what does it mean to bridge. Perhaps Gib programmers are forgetting their roles here. Gib is a robot, a fun novelty where poeple can play bridge with without humans A huge learning tool, as they are easy to access and very private, so one can gain confidence without embarrassing themselves. I was shocked to see my neighbors daughter of 11 years old playing bridge on Gib. In my day you didn't even start the game until you were 20 or so. She was given a few simple instructions, and then sat clicking all day like it was just another computer game. My point is, that when she is ready she will go into the main lounge and start playing "real bridge" What conventions will she play, how will she play them? Bidding is a language it must be constructed well and be simple and universal. Gib has set the standard (poor at that) she will find her partners by this standard. Why are we teaching bridge by such low bidding standards?

"Bergen would not be on my list. I would have gotten tired and quit before Bergen made an appearance. " Wow is that a political statement does he work for Mr Trump or trumps or something? What is your agenda? Bergen is a lovely convention, played by many who appreciate it, it is simple and it works. Certainly better than anything I have seen on Gib. I hope Gib is not being programmed by any "agenda" I cannot understand that attitude. I have spent the whole day arguing the demerits of leb, a system that is complicated, hard to learn and with the rewards hardly worth the effort. Yet it gets all the support, and people will argue for hours in support of it. Here we have a simple convention, easy to learn, it works, it helps find(or avoid) game and slam contracts better and anyone from a beginner onward can understand it. Yet you talking like no bridge player will ever achieve anything if they played Bergen? What is your agenda? Surely the programmers of Gib have a huge responsibilty to the future of bridge. Not everybody wants to win the Bermuda Bowl, most just want to get on with simple bridge, robots fill that function. They are learning tools too.

"Presently we play 1♣-1Major-1NT as Beta asking". no, this indicates no major fit and therefore no asking bid, like you say weak hand is in control so if slam is on, the Omega bid (reverse asking bid) is needed. Lots of options are available to control bidder here including Voidwood, Minorwood and RKC 0314 The Gamma is for 1♣-1NT The Beta is for side suites when a fit is found The alpha is for all suit fits blind hand long. so the Delta is for when the control hand has a long suit, but has not found a fit yet. remember Staymen bidding not asking bids is needed to find 4-4's Transfers(if you play with them) complicates things, but not if you treat the artificial bid exactly as you did before with a natural bid. Unfortunately you can't get the sequences wrong, or partnership bidding will go haywire and you will lose your way. :rolleyes:

Yes I love asking bids too. I do not see any reason to change to anything else, they work, work well and work for me. Established partnerships can deviate, new partnerships cannot. However one has to understand what sequence the asking bid occurs or blind partner will not understand the question. I am saying use them properly, or dont bother. Both partners must play the same way. Delta bids have been introduced for that sequence that does have an asking bid, 1♣-1♠-2♥ was natural before, now we use the Delta. Omega bids are for non 1♣ openings and control partner has a huge hand. These help as an aid to finding slam here too. ^_^

lol I guess that says it all. If I was going to create of list of new treatments and conventions that GIB could play, I would throw Gib into the garbage bin first.

lol I have been playing for over 50 years now. 1) I am not learning leb, that I did 49 years ago 2) I didnt like it then either 3) after 30 years of arguing this point............. I still hate leb, so you go listen to your experts, I will just continue winning.

"better" ? I didnt win the Bermuda Bowl, honestly so there will ALWAYS be better players than me, are you? Bridge is a competitive game, is passing when one should double "better"? As I see it, what club do you go to, If I am playing the above hand, and we get them down 2 double.......we get a fat top. And for all you leb players out there....learning from Gib and BBO and "trends"...good luck even if you find your game contract we win, enjoy your 3NT or part score or misbid. You are really missing your opportunity to take advantage of opps misfits, psyches and poor bids. I guess why does a straight beat 3 of a kind? reward vs effort?

and on and on and on, really is the reward worth this effort? You agree that double should be take out? You sound as confused as the rest of them surely, come to my club you will get mulched. So you agree that double is not part of the convention when it is an important available bid? I have no words for you except..............drivel

Now for all those club players out there, if you sit down to play with a new partner, switch leb "on" or "off" with me. Default double is Penalty and double of 2 club is Staymen after 1NT openings. Then again you need agreements for the other leb. How much time have you got for partnership agreements? You have seen how the argument develops and continues, if you can even get your head around the convention. Is the reward worth the effort? No, get on with discussing more important and other lovely conventions out there,

Default meaning makes sense, everything else is just meaningless since I cannot make a partnership agreement with Gib, double of 2 clubs for staymen is nice "trends" probably are propagated by BBO and Gib anyway.