jonottawa

Take a deep breath, Mike. I'd be happy to explain to you what 'taken to its logical extreme' means if you'd like. Let me know if that's the case. If not, let me know which of the rules I mentioned a private non-profit organization would not be allowed to adopt. The values I'm referring to (some American values and some 'Bridge values') are pretty much those I've outlined earlier: Freedom of expression, decency, tolerance, compassion, forgiveness, sportsmanship ... and yes, sensitivity to decorum. The fact that the ladies breached the last one in the mildest fashion imaginable doesn't give the USBF BoD carte blanche to violate virtually all of them.

FWIW I'm an average plus Flight A player and doubt I will rise much above that. I do agree my comment was borderline. I thought it was clever, but also pretty mean. I wouldn't have made it if it had been directed at anyone in particular (generic 'rednecks'.) Sorry I offended you.

Nope ... no emotional utterances here. :rolleyes: Please answer the question, counselor. Do olympic teams represent their countries or not? I'll happily stipulate that the businesses you mentioned do NOT because no reasonable person would think that they do. If you think it's also true that no reasonable person would suppose that a team of bridge players called USA 1 competing in a world championship (under the olympic charter) are representing the United States, then let's discuss this further. If you agree that the team represents the US, but not the organization whose sole purpose is to select the teams, fund them and try to get the sport into the olympic games, then let's discuss that point. As for employment relationships, we agree. This is not an employment relationship.

Here's Mike's argument taken to its logical extreme. The USBF is a private organization. They can make any rules they want. They can ban gays. They can ban women. They can ban atheists. They can make you swear a loyalty oath to President Bush. If you live in the United States and want to play bridge in world championships, you must agree to comply with their rules, no matter how vile, no matter how anathema they might be to traditional American values, and if you don't you have noone to blame but yourself. I call bull$hit on that. Then he continues with something like: Yeah, it probably wasn't the best idea to publicly browbeat the women and threaten them with an even more insanely harsh punishment than the insanely harsh punishment outlined in the so-called 'compromise proposal.' But the women only have themselves to blame. Jesus. Even Roland doesn't think that at this point the women only have themselves to blame. You're in awfully thin company, Mike. Taking away someone's livelihood for a year, giving them 200 hours of community service, forcing them to sign an apology authored by the USBF lawyer and a confession is not remotely reasonable. It's insulting. It's inflammatory. It's inhuman. It's vile. The sign was an incredibly MILD example of poor taste. It should have been ignored. Lawyers love to create tempests in teapots, though ...

I completely disagree with your first assertion. The USBF, private organization or not, by calling itself the USBF is indeed making a political statement and a claim that it represents the country. To say otherwise is utterly absurd (the rule they're alleged to have broken is the Olympic Charter for goodness sake. Are you intending to suggest that olympic teams don't represent their respective countries?) If the United States Bridge Federation doesn't represent the values of the United States of America, they should change their name and make that explicit to their membership. They are welcome to change their name to the Neo-Contract Bridge Federation. You, as a Canadian, can have your limited freedom of expression with your notwithstanding clauses and whatnot. Americans made it the FIRST amendment for a reason. And no, I'm not arguing that this is a first amendment issue, since the first amendment only applies to Congress and (via the 14th amendment) to the various state governments. But the traditional American value of freedom of expression should not be trampled on recklessly or impulsively and certainly not in the manner adopted by the USBF BoD.

Character assassination? More like character suicide.

And while we're at it, what qualifies comedian Rush Limbaugh (another junkie) and Bill O'Reilly (a sexual harassing bully) to be talking heads? I remember when Bill O'Reilly was the host of Inside Edition (an entertainment show) and it was a lot less than 20 years ago.

And some people remember George Bush being a coke-snorting alcoholic failed businessman 20 years ago, who joined a cult to help him deal with his substance abuse problems. Not exactly qualified to be POTUS, imo.

The day you start deliberately mischaracterizing my arguments or using other fallacious reasoning is the day you'll offend me, not before. I'm not expecting to see that day particularly soon, hrothgar. I'm holding the USBF Board to their own standards. I think many of their standards are ludicrous, asinine, nutty, etc. But people shouldn't object to being held to their own standards. My 8 point statement certainly had elements of satire (obviously I wouldn't use the acronyms DUMB and VCTMs if it were 100% serious) but the points made were every bit as valid, if not more, than the points made in the document I was parodying. Almost everything you said about the situation is exactly right. 1. They handled it as poorly as possible (I'm embellishing a little, but I don't think we're too far off on this point.) 2. By handling it the way they did, it was very easy to predict that all of the negative repercussions that have come to pass would come to pass. 3. Everyone would love it if there was a way to defuse the situation but none is readily apparent. Used to be in this country when people make a mess, they get fired. If the BoD continues on their current path, they sure as hell better get fired. It's up to them to swallow their pride, recognize that their behavior has been far worse than the behavior of the ladies, and end this thing peacefully and soon. They remind me of A-Rod kissing that $21 million good-bye. Seemed arrogant and insane beyond belief to me at the time, but I figured Scott Boras had a master plan. Nope. It was just arrogant and insane beyond belief. Time to come crawling back to the Yankees, USBF BoD. You're going to have to settle for a little less than you reckoned on in the bargain. Better make it quick, though, you're no Alex Rodriguez. You're replaceable.

Midnights I'd lead the ♠2. (Yeah, I know, not many midnight matchpoints events.) Diamond seems like it has least potential for embarrassment. But that's probably what you did so it's probably not the right answer.

Olbermann rerun is on now on MSNBC (at least in Austin (central time.)) It's story#2 (the 2nd last story.)

You spoke to Eddie? He's the only Wold I know. But seriously, that statement reminds me of the infamous Clayton Williams (Texas gubernatorial candidate) statement: "Well, bad weather is like rape: if it's inevitable, you might as well relax and enjoy it." The ladies rightly perceived that a lynch mob was at the gate. They weren't about to relax and enjoy it.

I've come up with a way to resolve this. It's time for the rednecks to secede from the ACBL. Those of us who support American values like decency, tolerance, freedom of expression, dissent, compassion, and forgiveness can stick around. Don't worry, though, the Neo-Contract Bridge League will still be allowed to send its best teams to the Trials every year. We'll even let you wear your hoods.

Unless you are a dues paying member of the USBF, I doubt they give a damn what you demand and quite possibly, they don't care, even if you are one. Don't put words in my mouth, Bid, that's a bad habit of yours. Nobody demanded anything. Virtually their entire budget comes from an organization I've been a member of for 20 years. They've brought discredit to themselves and to the game. It's time for them to go. I will make my feelings on that point clear regardless of who gives a damn about it. They portray half the team as non-apologists when noone on the team has ruled out an apology and all but one has signed off on various apologies, conditional on a reasonable resolution to the matter. They allow themselves to be swayed by one angry old man who thinks a 4-year suspension is the appropriate punishment and another one who thinks the ladies have committed treason. You want to support them, be my guest. But don't distort my position, thanks. Edit for the kids on the short bus who can't tell when someone is writing conversationally. If you want to support them, be my guest. But don't distort my position, thanks.

I've been informed that tomorrow night's Olbermann will be a very good show. I've also been informed that every member of the team has offered to apologize (presumably conditional on a slap on the wrist) but have been turned down because some board members 'want blood.' Edit: A very minor clarification: The four "nonapologists" offered several versions of an apology and they were told by 2 USBF board members that they would not be good enough because some on the "board want blood." If this is true, I hope others will join me in asking for the resignation of the USBF BoD. Their behavior has been unconscionable. Let's resolve this issue before San Francisco.

disinterested? On the issue of the validity of this particular email, I am absolutely disinterested. If I thought it was a fake email I would say so. As I did when I first heard of it (because few people misspell their own name.) If someone went to the trouble of creating a fake email including a 'fake' legal disclaimer with phone numbers and an email address at the bottom and copied another board member on the email just for kicks, then more power to them. I am reasonably confident the email is legitimate.

Okay, I'm pretending that I'm subbing into a tournament and this is what I see. 'Probably not the field bid' is an understatement. I pass. 4 Diamonds might be right but it also might be very wrong.

We just made the #2 story on Olbermann. He ripped Jan a new one. He brought up her 'not a free speech issue' quote. Paraphrasing: 'There's the rub. You are the United States Bridge Federation. If you don't represent the values of the United States, get a new name.' Edit: Here's a direct quote (from the rerun) of the end of that piece. "Martel tells the New York Times "This isn't a free speech issue. There isn't any question that private organizations can control the speech of people who represent them." Ah, slippery slope there. A private organization assuming for itself the right to represent this country and use the name "United States" without adhering to the rights of the citizens of this country. On whose authority, it might well be asked, does the "United States Bridge Federation" exist?"

A few nuances lost, but I thought it was funny that someone pointed out that the ladies were just exercising their rights to free speech and bare arms. And to some extent it WAS a free speech issue, just not a first amendment issue. Now it's a 'If the body in charge of disciplining you for trivial misconduct starts misbehaving in a way that makes your trivial misconduct pale in comparison, where do you go from there?' issue. I think you declare a mistrial, dismiss the charges, and move on.

It's hard to believe that an attorney representing the USBF would really say this..... This time I'm dubious of the source. Is it not Allan Falk? Besides, the USBF would never hire an attorney who sounds quite so unhinged. Surely it's a hoax. EDIT: The author of that blog has since updated the spelling from Alan to Allan. 2nd EDIT: I've received what is purported to be the original email from the author of the blog and it certainly doesn't appear to be a hoax.

This is the most plausible theory about the US/Iran/Iraq thing I have heard for years. Which doesn't say much, admittedly. No, that's not it. Bush's plan all along has been to invade Iraq first, then Iran, which we would then combine into one big country called Irate. That way we'd have all the pi$$ed off people in one place. (Joke stolen from the folks here.)

Sorry, I thought it would be clear who wrote it. I was trying to parallel the original language, not remain anonymous.

EDIT: In response to this, I wrote this: The following statement was written by one member of the ACBL: Post-Shanghai Actions of deranged USBF meathead BoD ("DUMB") It may be the case that the DUMB did not intentionally act detrimentally to the USBF. But the evidence suggests that is extremely unlikely. The DUMB have acted in a way that has, in fact, been extremely detrimental to the USBF. 1) The Venice Cup-winning team members ("VCTMs") held up a small hand-made sign during the victory ceremony in response to a handful of comments they'd received during the tournament about the policies of torture, kidnapping, preemptive war, indefinite detainment without trial, and various other traditionally unAmerican and inhuman policies advocated by the current president of the US. 2) This sign indicated that VCTMs had not voted for the current president. It was in poor taste and would not have met with Miss Manners' approval, but was in keeping with traditional long-standing US values of tolerance for open dissent and criticism of government, a government that has from the beginning been of, by and for the people, and which has earned the admiration of the world for tolerating, and occasionally even encouraging, such dissent. 3) It was not in any way critical of the Chinese hosts, the United States of America, any participants in the event, or openly critical of anyone at all. VCTMs waved US flags and sang the anthem as they held the sign. 4) A small percentage of the bridge community demanded that VCTMs be punished. A much larger percentage asked that either no action be taken or that minimal action be taken to ensure that such behavior not reoccur and that VCTMs acknowledge that they had offended some people with their behavior. 5) The DUMB took it upon themselves to escalate the situation by treating what was essentially a non-issue as an emergency, cataclysmic, outrageous affront. The DUMB harangued and bullied VCTMs, offering them what amounts to a lengthy prison sentence with a Scarlet Letter thrown in for good measure for what was, at worst, a misdemeanor. 6) Upon being informed of the decision, many of those members of the bridge community who had called for a slap on the wrist condemned the DUMB in unusually harsh language for their conduct. 7) The DUMB have acted in a way that is bad for bridge, bad for the USBF, and that diminishes us all as human beings. Their belligerent, arrogant, draconian conduct undermines the spirit of friendship, tolerance, sportsmanship and goodwill that the vast majority of bridge players aspire to. At this point, any loss of sponsorship, drop in membership, or any other negative repercussions stemming from recent events can be completely attributed to their behavior. Furthermore, their behavior has all but guaranteed that this incident will not be resolved in an appropriate and satisfactory manner. 8) The DUMB should all resign, effective immediately. The US bridge community has no obligation to coddle, foster, or protect the megalomaniacal ambitions of any demonstrably unqualified group to serve as its spokespeople. Once that has occurred, sanity prevailing,we can return to the issue of what, if anything, ought to be done with respect to VCTMs.

Ah, I get it now. They held up the wrong sign. The USBF would have been fine with a sign like: "The Chinese government doesn't sympathize with political dissent." I think the USBF owes the Chinese government an apology for posting such belligerent and arrogant western propaganda on their website. Did the USBF become a political organization all of a sudden? Whoever's bright idea it was to post such inappropriate blather should of course be suspended from USBF events for a year, be required to do 200 hours of community service, and be required to sign a letter of apology, contrition, submission and self-flagellation authored by me. After all, everybody knows that the reason there's no political dissent in China is that everybody loves the system of government there so much. The USBF is carrying on very much like what I'd expect from these guys: http://www.usbf.net/

I'll just quote Zia: "The bridge world is full of interesting guys. A lot of them are idiots, a lot of them are, you know, autistic — deformed mentally. They’re complete nuts. They wouldn’t even fit into the trailer of a movie of life." Now the USBF is determined that the Venice Cup team be judged by a group of these guys. Apparently the nuttier the better. Didn't we just lose a giant of the game? Shouldn't that have been a wake-up call for everyone that life is too short for this *****? The USBF 'offer' is a disgrace. Whoever drafted it should be sent to his room where he can go back to tearing wings off flies and smelling his own armpits. I'd sooner see the ACBL and USBF bankrupted than see these courageous women be victimized by this kangaroo court.