bridgepali

:) I do.

B-) These type of illusions have been reported ever since Vanderbilt, his cronies and a French lass passed through the panama canal. As for making a game with 21 pts. or a small slam with 25 pts. it can't be done. Each scenario requires two more tricks at three points per trick to meet the challenge. A source for points lies in trick taking tactics like a fineesee, discard, etc. The taking of a trick, no matter the card involved, is worth 3 pts. the average value associated with preordained aces, kings and queens. Another source can be from trick taking card formations that are not recognized to be a point source, like each uncovered trump card when combined hands have >8 in the long hand and a minimum of three cards in the short hand. Another source can be a misplay by opponents. As for both partnerships having small slam hands, I can't offer a solution without some pondering. In a coming posting I address as to how card formations provide points.

:angry: MYOB :lol:

B-) My reason for being partial to 3 pts. is trick point values from the six bid levels range from 2.5 to 3.0. Rather than use a decimal number to divide by when need arises, I round off to three to determine points per trick. For in the end the ultimate test is, "with no misplays does a combined hand's point count match-up to it's declarer count. For if not something is amiss with point count gathering which I address in my next posting.

B-) I am not aware of any advantage "opening low" gives to bidding a hand. In the end it takes "X" points to take "Y" tricks. Thanks for the read.

:P Be careful.

B-) I just posted the first of two post as to how I view points for opening trump hands. Thanks for the reply. Apparently you have partners that know your playing methods.

:ph34r: Distribution point values are arbitrary, yet standardized through point count methods. One for a doubleton, two for a singleton, three for a void for short strains; one for each card over four for a long strain. During the 1970's some point count methods made the value of a void five points and a singleton three points which are in use today. High card points, distribution points and card formation points make-up a hand's point count (Refer to Talking Pts. X????). Through the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart, combined hand points are brought together to reflect the trick level that can be reached at auction. The closer a partnership can bid the combined hand point count to it's optimum point count, the better the chance of getting a makeable contract will be. It takes a minimum of 17 pts. with no misplays to make a one level trump bid, 20 pts. a two level, 23 pts. a three level, 26 pts. a four level, 29 pts. a five level, 32 pts. a six level, >35 pts. a seven level respectively. To verify the comparisons presented, select a completed dealt trump hand printed specimen without a bad trump split. Now, from declarer's position add-up the pre-ordained trick winners (Refer to Talking Pts. V??) held by opponents. Next, subtract the number of pre-ordained trick winners from thirteen. Now, subtract one point from the running total for each doubleton queen, singleton queen or king in the combined hands. Now, add/subtract one point respectively to/from the running total for each card formation held by the combined hands; the result being the number of natural tricks (Tricks not to be gotten by a trick taking tactics like a fineese or discard.) to be gotten. Now, using your point count method, add-up the hcpts. in the combined hands. Next, subtract three points for each doubleton queen, singleton queen or king in the combined hands from the running total. Next, add to the running total the combined hands distribution point count and then add/subtract three points respectively for each card formation held by each hand. Now, divide the resulting point count total by three, resulting the trick count total to be gotten without a trick taking tactic (Fineese, discard, etc.). When the trick count from the final count is greater than the trick count from declarer's count, the expectancy for making an overtrick exceeds seventy percent. When the trick count from the final point count is less than the trick count from declarer's count, either the point count method is bypassing distribution points, or card formation points are being excluded. I find a point count method of one for a doubleton, three for a singleton, five for a void for opener and responder along with three for a card formation to be on spot. B-) Watch for Talking Pts.XV???

:huh: Why?

:D I will and let you know.

:D The hands you refer to are demonstration hands. No matter the strain opener opens with, under the 5cMABBS and a point counting method similar in values to Roth or Goren being used, the number of tricks to be gotten are fixable and predictable when card play is without misplays. Thank you for the question.

You missed me. :rolleyes:

Thank you for the elaboration. B-)

:ph34r: Depending on the point count method used, you may be opening on twelve points instead of thirteen as called for under 5cMABBS for trump play. The Rule of Twenty reads: if hcpts. plus the number of cards in the two longest suits adds up to twenty or more, open the bidding. In other words, under Rule of Twenty a hand with eleven hcpts. or more and two strains of cards adding to nine can be opened due to that combination of hcpts. and cards providing thirteen plus points. This holds true except for the hand shapes 5-4-3-1, 5-4-3-2, 5-4-4-0 when used with the point count method put forth by the A.C.B.L., Kaplan and any other that calls for only distribution length points in the opening hand. For the instructions to do so are given through the point count method that determines a hand's distribution count, not a hand's shape. Hand shapes from a completed trump deal are made-up of doubletons, singletons and voids. Depending upon the shape of hand and the assigned value given the doubleton, singleton and void through the point count method in use, an additional twenty points can be added to a combined hand's point count for auction purposes. But when the point count method doesn't call for distribution short points from the opening hand, as the A.B.C.L. and Kaplan do, the point count from an opening hand is restricted to delivering one point from 5-4-X-X hand shapes. B-) Watch for Talking Pts. XV??

:( VIEWER'S NOTICE: Line two paragraph one has been altered for clarity.

Thank you for making me aware of the misrepresentation regarding the Responder/Post Responder initial minor bid. As of 9:45 P.M. British time November 18, 2016, it has been corrected. I have yet to determine how such an error got by me. Talking Pts. is a compilation of bidding observations made during my bridge playing years. I am not teaching nor am I looking for feedback. My intent is to share shortcomings in the bidding process that plagued my game for years. To call the Talking Pts. series absurd is an unfair appraisal. To be absurd it's content would have to be ridiculous, unreasonable, unsounding or incongruous; which not one posting has been. Talking Pts. is for guiding players to a better understanding of the Goren based bidding method. I had taken several hundreds of hours of ACBL sanctioned lessons before recording my first slam, all because my partners and I hadn't been taught how to count points in our hand's to the fullest. The first nine posted Talking Pts. have had over 10,000 unsolicited views, which by my guesstimate could mean around 1,000 bridgees have become happier with their point counting. Those nine post also had fewer than 90 replies, mostly from cyber bullies who for some reason do not want other bridgees exposed to a different point counting concept. As for the convention postings, they have nothing to do with bidding or playing bridge. The purpose was to show an approach to memorizing conventions with the task based on point counting. During my playing days it would be a novelty to partner with someone who played more than Stayman. Regardless of what some one would tell me regarding why, I suspected it was because of memorization. And when you would come across a partner who played more than Stayman, there's interpretation. I find remembering numbers and sequences easier than verbiage and suspect others do also. Yours truly, B-)

B-) Why do you ask?

B-) The Strong Two Club Convention when not responded to 2D's is a game response/ fit finding convention. It's intent after a bona fide twenty-two to twenty-four point opening bid is to end up in a strain or trump game contract. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER (Select One) - with >7pts. and a balanced hand, bid 2NT. - with >7pts. and a 5+ card major strain, bid major at the two level. - with >7pts. and a 6+ card minor strain, bid minor strain at the three level. OPENER/POST OPENER (Select One) - with a balanced hand, respond to 2NT bid 3NT; or with 4+ cards of a major or 5+ cards of a minor bid strain at the three level. - with 3+ cards of a bid major, bid major at the three level. Otherwise, with 4+ cards of the other major, or 5+ cards of a minor, bid strain at the three level giving preference to the major. If hand is balanced, bid 2NT. - with 3+ cards of a bid minor, bid minor at the four level. Otherwise, with 5+ cards of the other minor or 4+ cards of a major, bid strain at the three level giving preference to a major. If hand is balanced, bid 3NT. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER (Select One) - with <33 combined hand points, conclude bidding by passing when facing a strain game contract or bidding 3NT., unless a strain game contract can be reached. - with >32 combined hand points, raise a supported major bid to 4NT. If the major bid is not a supported bid, with 4+ cards in the other major or 5+ cards in a minor, bid strain at 4NT giving preference to the major. Otherwise bid an unsupported strain to game, bid 3NT, or introduce a 5+ card strain. If hand is balanced, bid 4C's. - with >32 combined hand points, raise a supported minor bid to 4NT. If the minor bid is not a supported bid, with 5+ cards in the other minor or 4+ cards in a major, bid strain at 4NT giving preference to a major. Otherwise, bid an unsupported strain to game, bid 3NT, or introduce a 5+ card strain. If hand is balanced, bid 4C's. Alert: Response formats presented are covered by 2013 copyright. B-) Watch for Talking Pts. XV?

B-) I find the most factual method for determining the number of tricks that can be gotten from a given trump contract, is to add-up the aces, kings and queens the opponent's hands hold that can't lose their preordained trick status (Refer to Talking Pts. V??) through a ruff. Then subtract the result from thirteen the total number of tricks that can be gotten. Then add/subtract respectively the value of one for each trick changer card formation in the combined hands; that result being the total number of tricks to be gotten from a given hand, except when the combined hand point count is >35 or the opponents hold an unfavorable split in the trump strain. When the combined hand point count indicates more tricks to be gotten then necessary to make the level the contract was bid at, for each point above the required level a trick can be gotten. When the count indicates fewer tricks to be gotten than necessary to make the level the contract was bid at, for each point below the required level a trick must be found during the play of the hand or the contract will be set a like amount. When the combined hand trick count and the combined hand point count don't convey the identical trick taking capacity, something is amiss. Known times when this occurs is whenever the distribution count (Refer to Talking Pts. V???) has been overvalued; when opponent's have an unfavorable trump split; when the combined hand count is >35; when the opponent's combined hand point count is greater than the declarer's combined hand point count. Without a doubt, other situations have yet to surface. B-) Watch for Talking Pts. XV

B-) Oops? Just had a senior moment??

B-) B-) The Weak Two Convention is a strain/fit finding convention. It's intent is to open a partnership's bidding with a six card strain of either diamonds, hearts or spades that has 6-11 bona fide pts. with at least 6 hcpts. in the strain. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER (Select ONE) - with 11-13 pts. and 3+ card support, raise preempt two level opening bid to the three level. - with 14-19 pts. and 2+ card support, acknowledge preempt two level opening major bid by bidding an artificial 2NT. - with 14-19 pts. and 3+ card support, acknowledge preempt two level diamond opening bid by bidding an artificial 2NT. - with 14-19 pts. and a five card major, bid the major at the two level. If hearts can't be bid at the two level, bid an artificial 3C's. - with >19 pts. and a balanced hand, bid 3NT; otherwise make a game bid in opened preempt strain. OPENER/POST RESPONDER (Select One) - with 6-8 pts. bid preempt opening bid strain at the three level. - with 9-11 pts. in the preempt strain that include an ace or king, make an artificial bid of 3C's. - with 9-11 pts. in the preempt strain, make an artificial bid of 3NT. - with 3+ card support for secondary strain, bid strain at the three level. If can not support secondary strain, with 6-8 pts. bid preempt strain at the three level; with 9-11 pts. make an artificial bid of 3NT. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER - depending on point count and the low range count of Opener's/Post Opener's responsive bid, either make a game strain bid or pass. Alert: Response formats are presented covered by a 2013 copyright. B-) Watch for Talking Pts. X????.

B-) Hey Bridge Pals: The alert is a heads up to those who might think they can mass reproduce. B-) Have a good day.

B-) According to Kaitlyn S. in her posting "Bidding Problems for Novices Part 4" under the Novices and Beginners Forum, in the case of the ACBL it is by design. They call it "limited point games". :D Have a good day: your Bridgepal, Ken

B-) The Stayman Convention is a no-trump fit finding convention. It's intent after a bona fide no-trump opening bid, is to determine if a 4/4 major requisite trump footprint is existent between hands. If so, in which major and the number of hcpts. If not, opener makes a 2D artificial bid and responder based on the number of hcpts. in-hand, bids an appropriate option. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER - with >7 hcpts. and four cards of a major, make an artificial bid of 2C's. OPENER/POST OPENER (Select One) - with four cards of the heart strain bid, 2H's. - with four cards of the spade strain, bid 2S's. - with <4 cards of either major, make an artificial bid of 2D's. RESPONDER/POST RESPONDER (Select One) - if partner bid 2H's, with 8-9 hcpts. bid 3H's; with 10-14 hcpts., bid 4H's; with <4H's and 8-9 hcpts., bid 2NT; with 10-14 hcpts., bid 3NT. - if partner bid 2S's, with 8-9 hcpts. bid 3S's; with 10-14 hcpts., bid 4S's; with <4S's and 8-9 hcpts., bid 2NT; with 10-14 hcpts., bid 3NT. - if partner bid 2D's, with 8-9 hcpts. bid 2NT; with 10-14 hcpts. bid 3NT; with >32 combined hand pts., bid 4NT (Blackwood). Note: When playing Stayman the opening no-trump hand should not have a five card major. Alert: Response formats are presented covered by a 2013 copyright. B-) Watch for Talking Pts. X???

B-) Hey Bridge Pal: Thank you for viewing Talking Pts. For the start of a new points topic, a show and tell on how points meld hands into conventions, go to Talking Points X?. :rolleyes: