Double !

something very strange about the bidding rho was not good enough to open in 3rd seat but is suddenly good enough to complete to the 3-level. what could account for this? at imps, IMO, pass seems appropriate at MP, however, the decision is harder. How many of the other E/Wpairs are going to bid to 3Cs? Why didn't rho pre-empt 3rd seat? What would you have done over 3rd seat 3C bid by rho? If most of the field is playing stronger 1NT openers, the likelihood is that many will open 1C with your hand, so few E/Wpairs would likely bid to 3C after that. If you are sure that you could have made 110 or better in hearts, then, IMO, you need to double because, otherwise, you might risk a fix by passing when you go +100 when the field is +110 or better. I suspect that rho has most of his/her hand in the minors, but not certain of that. P rates to have some cards on this hand, maybe can contribute a trick or two. I really don't know if this is the winning bid, but +200 is usually a very good matchpoint score. This is a toughie. DHL

have a question, mike before deciding if 4NT should be heart cue or to play, how does P ask for a club control (A,K, stiff) on this auction? DHL :-)

If partner's XX denies 3+ spades, why rebid 2S over 2 hearts? I have no clear cut action over 2H although 3 clubs could be worthy of consideration. I pass 3H. Any diamond honors that partner has are poorly placed, rho has shown 8+ red cards (in theory), and where are the rest of the spades. Is playing the redouble as just showing 10+ pts the most functional way to play such a bid? DHL

I am just curious: Is there anyone out there who would consider an initial response of 2 clubs, your 6-card suit? Resonding 1NT and then rebidding 3C after opener responds 2 diamonds would seem to bury the heart suit for good. DHL

My vote is to bid 2 hearts There are too many hands that partner can have where it's our hand but partner was unable to act directly over 1 spade. Yeah, I guess there's a risk. Might go for penalty on a bad day, but also might win part score battle and might even have a game. Passing just seems to unilateral and passive to me: yes I see those 3 small spades. (I wonder if risking a 1NT balance could be a winning action. It could mislead partner in terms of my shape and where an important card or two might be located.) Show me partner's hand first and I'll then tell you what I think is the right bid. lolol Oy. DHL

Yes, it is :) But also opener has his chance: 1♠ 1NT 2♦ 2♥ ?? or 1♠ 1NT 2♦ 3♣ ?? I'm not sure what chances for opener that your are referring to. As I understand it, a very common interpretation of a 1NT response followed by a suit rebid is to show a limited, one-suited hand that isn't good enough for other actions as they would tend to show stronger hands. Given this premise, I am not sure what action other than Pass you might want opener to take holding a relatively minimum hand (extra values for some posters, I know :) ) in the face of a potential misfit. 2NT by opener now shows a better hand or better trick-taking potential. A possible rebid might be 2 spades, but that seems unilateral and would likely be interpreted as showing some type of 6-4 hand. From opener's point of view, it might be important to get out of the bidding before getting into futher difficulty. DHL

Hey, Mauro Good to hear from you!! :-) DHL

I preface this by admitting that I don't know a thing about programming. But, I have been wondering for a long time whether or not the whole player profile set-up might be significantly increased to provide significantly more information about system and carding. The currently available space, IMO, is rather limited, and it is very difficult to fit in as much information as, again IMO, as is needed in order that new or pick-up partnerships can have some idea of what they are playing. How often have you seen someone sit down, say "hi all,....2/1 P? or SAYC-P? and then proceed to have, shall we say, less-than-optimal success, much to the reduced enjoyment of all at the table? I am fully aware of the convention card section of the program and that it is relatively easy to pull CC's up. I might be doing something wrong, but in my experience on BBO, it has always taken me additional time to pull up the cc to check what P's bid meant, even when I've checked off "use", etc. (I must be doing something wrong because I often need to reopen a CC if we are using one of mine.) This extra time has resulted in opps comments or complaints about the time I took to bid such as "too slow, bye" (yes, I know they aren't supposed to just leave). I've even had partner's ask if I was still there ( I admit that there have been many times when I haven't "been all there".) My point is that, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, whether more space and a more structured or formatted area such as a simplified CC couldn't be built into the player profile in the open are where it asks for preferences/ systems/ conventions etc. It is so much quicker to slide one's cursor over partner's name to highlight the profile page than having to pull up and then to go searching for and through a convention card. Like I said, maybe I just don't know how to use the program correctly in order to keep the CC's up so I just need to hit the conv. tab. Help/ advice/ response to these issues would be appreciated. Thanx in advance DHL

my old K-S background taught me to open these hands with weak 2 in 3rd seat to help keep 1-bids up to strength (and partner better have a good reason for taking any further action). A point that K-S made a long time ago that I believe to still be valid is that it puts enormous pressure on the partnership when the passed hand has to try to compensate for the possibility that 3rd seat opened on a subminimum. What I personally would open (as if it matters) would depend on partner and system. But not vul, despite not liking my 5332 distro, I likely would roll the dice and open 2S with this hand. To do so is consistent with keeping 1-bids up to strength, and it also adds a little pressure to the situation. Is there anyone who, assuming that they play weak 2-bids, would not open this hand with 2 spades in 3rd seat, favorable? (white vs. red) I acknowledge that more modern thinking might not agree with that position and would consider this hand to be a clear-cut, lead-directing 1S opener, ready to pass any response that partner makes (better hope partner doesn't make a negative double, or that it doesn't go 1S- dbl- redbl), and having toys like 2-way drury available for good responding hands with spade support. Would one be likely to make a non-vul overcall of 1 spade with such a hand? My guess is that many people would answer "yes". Is the issue of whether or not a 1 spade bid a psych due to the fact that the hand doesn't have 8+ hcp's? IMO, not being well-versed in the regs, I wouldn't consider bidding 1 spade to be a psychic opener. BTW: Ben. I like your comment about Drury being an illegal psychic control. In order to answer the original poll question posed for this thread, knowing what bidding systems the partnerships were playing might have been helpful. DHL

IMO, this hand is about hand evaluation and playing potential. I think I understand where the question of tiger versus chicken comes into play: does one count high card points, come to less than 12, and decide that the hand isn't good enough for a 2/1. Or does one look at a 6-5 hand that has 6, maybe 7 theoretical losers, 26-27 zars, and decide that the best way to show a 6-5 is to starting bidding one's suits in the face of a potential total misfit? Is the point of the title that the chicken responds 1NT and the tiger responds 2 clubs (or 2 hearts)? Bad hand for 2/1 always GF players. DHL

Good and interesting point. The play of the ten gives declarer a potential losing option whereas playing the honor from honor-10 doesn't (assuming possession of interior spots). Thanx for pointing this out! DHL

FWIW: I still like strong jump shifts, and I still have my lace-up boots (for men) and am proud of it. Actually, they are hand-me-downs. By the way, you left out fit bid as a viable option. DHL

oops, isn't this a low to the 9 situation? Then lead jack from dummy/ pin the ten? picks up stiff 10 and Honor-Ten on your left. I must be wrong because I am very poor with these types of situations. DHL

What I am about to say will probably sound asinine to many, and I am in no way recommending this for a hard-working, established, high-level competition partnerships. There are many theoretically and practically superior methods. But for less than frequent partnerships, the following is an agreement that IMO might be worthy of consideration. In fact, I pre-accept the opinion that this posting might be better placed in the intermediate level section of the forum, but it was in response to this thread's topic. I had agreements with my 2 regular partner when I was MUCH younger but playing regularly to play a redouble after 1M-X-? to show a good 3-card raise in opener's major, sort of like a drury-type hand, perhap a point less (about 9-11 support points). A single raise showed a weaker hand with 3-card support (or 4-card support with a flat hand), 2NT was limit raise, 3NT was GF 4-card support raise, and 3M was pre-emptive with 4-card support and not 4333 (we called it "inverted": this was circa early 1970s. We didn't have nearly as many tools as are now promulgated). Why did we play this? Our partnership intent at that time was to keep the meanings of bids as consistent as possible in an attempt to reduce partnership misunderstandings or forgetting what we were playing (including keeping the 1NT response to 1M forcing one round) and the philosophy of attempting to describe one's hand in as few bids as possible (in one bid if possible). The number of times when we got superior (matchpoint) results by doubling the opps after partner redoubled were relatively infrequent. Another factor with one partner was the fact that we were playing Precision: this approach opposite a limited opening made answering the questions of how high and in what strain to bid easier to determine in competition. Therefore, our approach was to essentially ignore the opps takeout double. This approach sacrificed two things: being able to play in 1NT after 1M-X-?, and collecting a huge number after 1M-X-XX. I felt that we lost little using this approach, and that we gained a lot in terms of clarity and consistency. Oh, well. That was then and this is now. FWIW: without a lot of discussion or experience with some of the more modern methods such as competitive transfers, I still like this idea for lack of a better commonly-used method. Hope this interested someone. Thanx: DHL

who ever said that support doubles were the best way to utilize the double in this situation? IMHO, support doubles are primarily a matchpoint-oriented convention to ensure that the partnership doesn't miss a 5-3 partscore in a competitive situation, and is due, to a significant degree, from playing strong 1NT openers. I don't think you'll see too many weak NT players using support doubles because non-1NT openers will tend to show stronger hands. When I first played them, my fine P and I agreed that they were 2-way: either 3-card support and/or extra values. But, so many people now use them that it seems to becoming more of the norm than the exception. DHL

I thought that, perhaps, I was the only one to whom the possibility of opening 1C and rebidding 1NT, seemingly a gross underbid, was even a thought (not necessarily a consideration). I was torn between opening 1C and 1NT. I do not consider this hand worth a reverse, and I am stuck for a rebid should I open 1 heart and partner raise on 3-card support. I elected to open 1 club with the intent of rebidding 1NT should partner respond 1 spade, fully aware that this is a lie about my high card points. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see a rebid problem if partner makes any other response. But, in my humble opinion, I feel that this hand is a flawed 16 with less than half of my high cards in my long suits, and I suspect that the partnership might often need a little extra combined in terms of high cards than usual unless partner has extra shape or good club cards in order to have enough tricks for any game or for the opps to not have enough quick cashing tricks to defeat game. If partner responds 1S and I rebid 1NT, P will now be bidding hearts if P has 4+ hearts, so the fit isn't missed. I would prefer to not rebid 2 clubs with this hands: I prefer this to show a 6 card suit or at least not Q empty 5th. In addition, should the opps start to bid spades, I am good enough to throw in a competitive double both in terms of strength and shape. I thought that my rationale for handling this particular type of hand was reasonable until I read Fred's compelling rationale for opening 1NT. Now I am not so sure, especially regarding his point about the opps potentially misjudging the 1NT opener's hand. Great hand for posting and discussing. DHL

i'm not sure what the best bid here is, but i will be honest and say that I would rkc under the assumption that partner's 4D Q shows a big hand and confirms hearts opposite a hand that only showed 4+ hearts. If P doesn't have hearts, then P has a hand that is able to have me assume that P has hearts and operate from that assumption. If not, i suspect that there is something else that P could have bid. I have a lot more opposite a strong heart-support hand than P could anticipate. The 6th heart (if original default assumption is correct) is huge. I believe that it is up to me to take captaincy This answer instinctive feels so wrong. Waiting to learn the correct bid. DHL

hi all playing walsh style, we play this as a support double (I can see a case for using this as showing hearts) is this the theoretically best use of the bid? I don't know but at least we have clear and consistent agreement. DHL

It's nice to now know that 2D was Ekren's as opposed to some 5-5 hand and less than 10 hcp (both of which are not permitted in acbl mid-chart play, or so I have been told when I have tried to play the latter). My personal approach to these situations is to not try to be brilliant. I am wondering where the spades are, and I suspect that spade king might not be worth very much. To bid 3C, IMO, partner should have a hand that would have a play for 3NT opposite a fitting club honor, a heart stopper, and perhaps a little more outside, or something of that ilk. Does that necessarily mean that we have a slam and that I might be stolen blind by not making a slam try? If there is a way to find out whether or not there are 2 quick losers on this hand, I would very much like to learn it. I am concerned that P would interpret a 4S bid by me as a club slam try showing the ace or a stiff, neither of which I have. Unless previously discussed, I am concerned that P would interpret 4NT as rkc. I'm under pressure, but I don't wish to take a minus score or have some bidding misunderstanding as a result. (Perhaps 4S should be rkc for clubs and 4NT be minor oriented slam try. This is an infrequent situation, IMO resolved only by partnership discussion.) So, I would likely bid an unimaginative 5C and let the experts tell me what I should have done. DHL

isn't the 4 spade rebid somewhat of an overbid? IMO, the hand is only worth a 3S rebid. Where are the tricks coming from. Yes, I am likely ruffing a club or two in dummy, using high trumps to do so. I always thought that a direct raise to game 1H-1S-4S indicated a hand that was likely to have a good play opposite a minimum hand by responder. I am not sure that opener's given hand meets this criterion. In fact, I doubt that I would have responded 1S to start with, especially since my hand doesn't live in the spade suit: no spade honors. I have Axx support in opener's 5+-card major that I won't be able to show without implying some high cards in the spade suit, or at least more than Txxx, and I have an outside ace. (1NT forcing followed by 3H is a common way to handle responder's hand although some have been tinkering with playing a 2C response as a beginning response for handling these types of hand as well as true club hands and some balanced hands.) With the given bidding, I am now stuck. I haven't yet shown my heart support, I have an outside ace, and good filler cards that might or might not be of value, depending on opener's hand. IMO, responder has dug a hole for him/herself by responding 1S initially from which there is now no clear escape. There could be a slam, and the 5-level could be unsafe, depending (from responder's point of view) on opener's hand. I would expect a better hand for the 4S rebid and, if opener felt that the hand was good enough to force the hand to 4S, why didn't open at least splinter so that responder would have a little more information from which to better evaluate the combined values? Anything responder does at this point could be wrong, IMO the result of the initial response of 1S. DHL

Before making the decision of whether or not to bid, it is important to discover whether or not the opps play the 2D resp. to the negX as showing extra values or not, whether they play it as a reverse or not. I know many fine players (such as my f2f P) who play this as a reverse and, therefore, might open a prepared 1D bid (or wk NT) with 4-5 in the minors. I really don't like the 1H overcall. I play sound overcalls vul (perhaps a little lighter if my suit is spades), with a new suit forcing one round. So, a 2H rebid by me shows a better hand. Despite the 2 aces, if I am bidding, I would be more likely to overcall 2H (we play 2NT by responder at this point to be Ogust) and at least make lho have to make a decision at the 2-level. But, given the bidding as described, to repeat, I suggest first finding out whether or not the 2D bid shows extra values. I suspect that the answers will vary from opp to opp. BTW: if rho is 4-5 in minors and P didn't raise, where are the rest of the hearts? (I have a funny feeling what the answer might be.) If P bid 1NT and I have Axx in diamonds, how good is the opps diamond fit likely to be,.........and where are the spades? DHL

I can see why It's lots of fun when you must open a 4306 hand with 1 diamond. Matchpoint Precision was/ is very much a majors-first system I have mixed feelings about the 1NT opening denying a 4-card major. Matchpoint Precision came out in about 1975, several years after cc wei's first precision book started to make an impact in bridge in the U.S. I always thought that the whole point of the modifications of no 4-card major for either the 1NT opener or the 2C opener was to prevent the matchpoint system fixes that periodically occurred when these bids were made containing a 4-card major and partner didn't have a good enough hand to make a "stayman-like" response to the opening. IMO, eliminating 4-card majors from a 1NT opening has its advantages and it's disadvantages. It makes any further bidding including handing competition/ interference by the opps easier to handle (it can eliminate the need to play negative doubles if the opps compete over 1NT and allow you to try for that big penalty number). But it means that hands with 4-card majors have to go somewhere else, and it also reduces the number of hands that you will open with 1NT. I have mixed feelings about the latter because I like to open 1NT as often as possible in order to force the opps, should they choose to compete, have to start their bidding at the 2-level knowing that opener has already roughly described his/her hand within certain parameters with the opening 1NT bid. It's a matter of partnership preferences and priorities. [i, personally, prefer to find ways to make it more risky for the opps to compete at the expense (at matchpoints) of some bidding accuracy.] DHL

I do not like lower of touching honor leads because 1) I always forget that I'm supposed to be playing them 2) I very much like to lead coded 9s and 10s (lead of 9 or 10 shows 0 or 2 higher in suit, lead of jack denies). I can't play coded 9s & 10s together because the results is that the lead of the jack then has two conflicting meanings. So, I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them Sam-I-Am DHL

Here's one for discussion: Bidding goes 1m by partner, rho overcalls 1H, you bid 1 spade (showing 5 by agreement: I know some don't play it this way), 2H by lho, and it's now P's bid. Playing support doubles, what are the meanings of the following bids by partner? 1) double 2) 2 spades does one show 3 card spade support and the other shows 4-card support? or can the raise to 2 spades be made with 3-card support? If yes, how do you play a double by partner? enjoy DHL

ever get the feeling that some conventions or treatments work better for some suits than for others? This hand is making me wonder whether or not, if playing leb over reverses, the meanings of 3C and 2nt should be reversed. 2NT followed by 3 clubs is stronger than 3 clubs, opener's suit. Just a thought. DHL