Syl20

It is obviously an advantage to be able to describe a forcing game hand at 1NT rather than in 2♣ after a limited 1♥/♠ opening (11-15H). I am wondering about the responses when responder is not forcing game. With, 6-xH (x between 9 and 11) and a 5 card suit (except ♣ which is any invitationnal), the suit is bid. So: 1- What if the suit is ♣ ? 2- What if 2443 or 2434 or 1444 after a 1♠ opening ? I assume that pass is the only option with up to 8H loosing any chance to find a better spot, what else ? 3- For those playing 2♣ as invitationnal, what hands does it hides and what are the opener's rebids ? 4- Are there any player with some experience (un)happy with this 1NT forcing game bid and inferences? Thanks,

This hand is very interesting because the final contract depends on the queen(s) held by opener. You said you are not interested by ♦Q but in fact you are if you wish to bid 7NT when opener has Q of ♣ and ♦ for 15 Hcp. To Gerben: Here are some questions showing my interest: 1- When the answer to your RKCB is 3/0 or 4/1 keys, how do you then differentiate the queen ask from the spiral scan ask ? Or do you just add the Q♥ as an honour to show or deny ? 2- How do you proceed for BW when you are still unsure of the suit you will play in, for instance, when it depends on the holdings ? What if you don't have a fit ? 3- Do you mean that when you RKCB for ♥ then every bid other than ♥ (and other than NT ?) will be a spiral ask ? 4- Is it really compulsory to play at least the slam when you begin Spiral scans ? This means that you only use Spiral scans when you hold all the aces ? 5- Can't you begin them to seak for a peticular honour and stop in 5♥ in case you don't like what you hear ?

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxxhkqxdaxxcakxxx&s=saxhajxxxxdkxxcqx]133|200|Scoring: doesn't matter[/hv] How do you bid with your strong club system after South opens 1♥ (5+♥, 11-15H) ? Please explain all the bids.

That was a joke... My answer was, of course, the second one. :rolleyes:

I was also thinking at this point which is sometimes inconfortable. For those playing Moscito, why not play 1♥/♠/NT, 2♦ to show (8)9-11 and 2♥/♠/NT, 3♦ to show 12+ ? The bidding is still symetric.. but one level higher :) . A cheaper way could also consist in reserving the first step of the control asking bid to show 12+ and the other steps to show 8-11. :)

I don't see the point: responder is invitational and opener is msfit minimum thus why should responder want to force ? Ok about invitational jump at 3♣/♦ with 9-11 and 6 cards but what about 9-11H and 5♣/♦ and 4♥ over 1♠ opening ? Finally, if 2♦ shows ♥, what is your use for 2♥ (still over 1♠ opening) ?

Could you please explain the continuations after 1♠-2♦ (when shall the opener relay in 2♥ and when shall he further describe...) ? How do you then cope with unbalanced hands with ♣ or ♦ 9-11hcp ? Thanks

Ok, thanks. :lol: I am hearing what i was thinking. As Chamaco said, i really like the ability to enter in relay sequence after any opening so that it gives great accuracy when in the slam zone, in fact this is the main interest of the system for me. As Luis pointed out, it isn't very effective in competitive bidding (mostly after 1♦ i suppose) because of its wide shape range where no suit is already shown but it is possible to compute other definitions for the openings, such as: 1♦=11-15, 5+♦ unbalanced or any 4441 with 4♦ 1♥/♠= 11-15, 5+ 1NT= 12-15 balanced 2♣ = 11-15, 5+♣ unbalanced or concentrated values if 5422 2♦ = weak, 6♥ or ♠ 2♥ = 4414 or (43)15 or 4405 (short ♦), equivalent to precision 2♦ 2♠ = weak, 5♠+4X with this kind of opening, it is possible to keep the effectiveness of relay auction while beeing less subject to being stuck when preempted. Of course, the relays after 1♦-1♥ would need some adjustements. I felt CRASH and super relay are very effective. When i tried to bid honestly a few boards where we missed slams, i found it was quite easy to bid them (or avoid them). Why controls then denial cue bids are more effective ? Do they save more bidding space ? :( Finally, concerning the memory, it may be right that some sequences are not very logical (i would need practice to realize that) but i enjoy that a lot of sequences are symmetric and thus lighten the memory load.

Hi, I am studying for pleasure the Viking Club from Groetheim & Sontag and i find it is very powerfull for slam bidding. Although it requires practice and some memory for shape showing (a lot of symmetry in it), I am not sure what it's worth for game invitational hands and part scores thus I am interested to know what you think of that system. Any of you tried it ? :P Sylvain

Hi, Although i find the Raptor convention usefull for the overcaller. I don't see how to cope with the inference. Every pros claim that with the normal 1nt overcaller (balanced (15)16-18), we just have to double. I am not sure this is as simple since after: (1♥)- X - (P) - 2♣/♦ what is the overcaller supposed to bid when his partner could be fairly poor but could also have 7hcp ? I have the feeling that the overcaller is stuck to bid 2NT final contract instead of playing a simple 1NT after usual overcall. Could you please lighten me ? Sylvain

Sorry i don't know how to handle the format for boards. The order is North and the four last are South's hand. In the middle are East and West. Simpler would be that i send you the original files if you wish ...

... here are some boards

Ok. I'am also sure we don't apply corrections the same way. Here is my "algorithm": (1) North is the one with 5+♠, 12-17Hcp (2) I calculate raw Zar points for both hands (3) I correct for trump honour(s) holding only for the South hand: one for trump 10 or higher (maximum 2 points). (4) I correct for trump length for both North (over 5) and South (over 3), allowing 3, 2 or 1 points per additional trump for void, singleton or doubleton. (5) I correct for honours in short suits (in my arbitrary choice and we surely differ here): Jack doubleton or singleton = 0 Queen doubleton or singleton = 1 King singleton = 2 (instead of 4) King doubleton remains unchanged Here are the results computed on 18000 boards: As you asked me, 12 boards do follow... :)

Thanks for the answer. I made a tool to calculate Zar points (thanks Free for the advice :D ) with positive corrections for trump honnours, trump length if doubletons and singletons and negative corrections in case of singleton or doubleton Queen and Jacks and singleton Kings. I asked "bridgelab.exe" to make 18000 boards with an opening 1♠ (5+♠, 12-17Hcp) and a fit for responder (5+Hcp, 3+♠). Then, i calculated the number of tricks in ♠ for every board (with "gib.exe") and classified the number of tricks for various combined Zar points. Although, i neither consider any opponents bidding (for other corrections) nor double fits, i found that the average tricks for 52 Zars is 9.0x and you need 56 Zars to get 10 tricks on average. I assume that we wish at least a probability of 50% to make the contract to be happy with the estimator. Any comments ?

Hi, Does anyone know a soft which can calculate Zar point value of a combined hand from .PBN files :lol: ? Thanks

Hi, For the ZAR users. This evaluation seems interesting but i still have uncertainties... Thanks to convice me on the following point: when responder as a fit and Ace of trumps, this Ace counts 8 Zars : 4Hcp + 2Cont. + 2Hon. in trumps suit ? Seems a lot, no ? How many Zars do you count on: ♠KQJxx ♥AQx ♦Ax ♣xxx opposite: ♠Axx ♥xxx ♦Qxxxx ♣xx On Zar's site. It is claimed that 99% of the games made on a championship were found with Zar evaluation. This looks impressive but what would better suit me is the ratio: "number of game bid with ZAR and not by conventional evaluation AND made" to "number of game bid with ZAR and not by conventional evaluation AND off". Any comments welcome.

Hi, For those who play the Matula version of polish club. I like the ida of bidding 1♣ 1♠ ? ? = 3♥ to show 19-21H and 5♦+4♥+3♣+1♠ ? = 3NT to show 19-21H and 5♦+3♥+4♣+1♠ but i wonder how you bid your hand after 1♣ 1♦ ? ;)

I just read some ideas from Matula, here you should bid 3♥ showing specifically 19-21H and 5♦+4♥+singleton ♠. Your partner surely would have also been able to find the slam. The other specific bid is 3NT showing 18-21H and 5♦+4♣+3♥+singleton ♠.

Hi all, Another question on developements: After 1♣-1♥, opener rebids 1♠ with: a- 4♠+5♣ and 15+ b- 5♠ and 18+ (thus 5♠+4+♣/♦ I read that 1♣-1♥-1♠-1NT-2♣ shows hands type (a). (1) On this sequence, should opener rebid 3♣/♦ to show 5♠+4+♣/♦) ? (2) Does this sequence also deny 3♥ since opener could bid 2♦ over 1♥ ? (3) What is your policy concerning the use or not of 2♦ after 1♣-1♥ when you hold as opener 4♠, 5♠ (as well as 3♥ of course) ;) ? Cheers

I wonder how to handle the hands 12-14H and 5♣3♦2♥3♠ in polish club after 1♣-1♦ ? If it is accepted that 1♥ may only show 3 cards, should also 1♠ possibly show only 3 cards in that case ? What looks to be the least worst choice ?

After your answers, some thoughts and discussions, i finally made up my mind. :) I agree that the best compromise should be to extend 1♦ up to 21 HCP rather than include it in options of the 2-level openings because: (1) it lowers the options of multi 2-level opening and thus enables direct obstruction after a 2 way-bid which garantees a suit (such as 2♦=6-10H and 6♥ or 16-19H and 5♥+5any after the auction 2♦ 4♥ bidder N°4 might have some critical decisions) (2) some bids are free for use (1♦ 1NT 3♥/♠/NT) and can be assigned to describe these critical hands with 5+♦+4any in the 18-21 range. (3) these hands with diamonds can also be bid by 1♣ 1♦ 1NT (with some 5♦422 or 6♦322 and good doubleton(s) when ♦ are bad or even with 6♦331 or 5♦431 with stiff honour)

Thanks for your answer The Hog. Sounds like a good alternative for 2/3rd of these tricky hands. I could then think of including the same hands with spades (giving up the weak 2 spade option) such that: 2♦= weak 2 in ♥ or 18-21 5+♦+4any 2♥= 5-10H, 5♥+5any and 2♠=5-10H, 6♠ or 5♠+5♣/♦ Does this seem reasonnable ? Sylvain

I heard a lot about Matula but i can't find it. Could you please explain roughly his thoughts about 1♣-1♦ developements when opener holds diamonds (6 bad or 5+4Maj and 20+) ? I am also interested in your favourite 2 level openings ? :)

I agree with you. I don't think the troubles arise after 1♣ 1♥/♠ since you can respond 2SA with 5431 and singleton in partner's suit OR 2♦ with 3+ cards in partner's. What about 1♣ 1♦ continuations ? As vang previously said; either you're not afraid if partner pass with 5 HCP and bid your 4 card major (when in 18-19 range) or have to try 3♦ (compulsory with 6 cards for me) or 1/2NT with 18-20/21-22 and 5422. Remains the tricky 5431 hands in the 20-21 range. No clearcut solution. I recommand (to myself :unsure: ) to bid 1NT with these hands (even with 6322 and bad 6331). In case partner transfers in our singleton, it is then possible to reveal our shape by bidding 2NT with 5431 and diamonds or 3♣/♦ with the 6331: e.g. after 1♣ 1♦ - 1NT 2♥ - ? ? = 2SA : 5♦(43)1♠ ? = 3♣/♦ : 6♣/♦331♠ At last, i didn't mention the 5/5 and 16-19 HCP which are also badly described after 1♣ opening. From another bridge forum, someone recommands 2-way openings such that: 2♦ : 6-10 5♥+5♠ or 16-19 5♥+5 in another 2NT : 6-10 5♣+5♦ or 16-19 5♦+5 in a black suit This should underload some hands of the 1♣ opening.