Hi all: Thanx for the "heated" discussions - just noticed this discussion list, never been here before. And since I am Zar himself, I decided that I may be able to shed a light on any questions or confusions you might have. Would be glad to. A quick remark - I noticed somewhere that you count 3+ Zar Points for any SIDE suit of a length of 4+. That's incorrect - you count "superfit" points of 3 per card above a fit of 8, regardless if that's a trump or a side suit. Also, this is the simplified fit-version, rather than the "Zar Ruffing Power" calculations, which assigns 3 points for a super-fit card (above 8) if you have a side void, 2 points if you have a side singleton, and 1 point per super-trump if you only have a side doubleton. With 4333 your additional trump gets no points at all. The simplified Zar Points that you know are programmed into the Zar Pid Mashine which you will find at the home-page (everything related to Zar Points, the Machine including, is free as you probably know). A last short note - comparing the Zar Points you know about (the simplified version) with Computer Bidding methods is comparing apples and oranges. I would be glad to run any comparison with the full version of Zar Points System (never published anywhere), which includes the Ruffing Power, the Footprints, sophisticated relays etc. which the average bridge player neither is interested in, nor would pay any attention to anyway. Zar Points with the 3-points fit adjustment are just an easy-to-remember and easy-to-use at the table Hand Evaluation system, tested on millions of boards, while the research itself involves tens of millions indeed. I intend to publish the bidding system itself, but I am still working on it. In the mean time simply try the Bid Machine at http://public.aci.on.ca/~zpetkov/ You simply use the SLIDERS to adjust the HCP, Controls, and Shape of the 2 hands and the Bid Machine bids in Goren, Bergen, and Zar (simplified Zar Points with 3-points superfits). The Contracts may look strange (like 3.75 H or 6.40 NT) but the goal is to let you play with the sliders and see WHAT is the effect of having 1 more control for example, or what is the effect of slightly shifting the Shape etc. I hope you'll find it interesting and illuminating. Have fun. ZAR P.S. You may find the seven articles on Zar Points in the Japan Bridge Bulletins (Eric Kokish editor) at http://bridge.cplaza.ne.jp/necfest04/nec.html Each short one-page article addresses different issues regarding Zar Points. Also an article will appear in tye next issue of The Bridge World. Make it a great day: ZAR