mitsguy

In SAYC, w hat is the proper way to respond to such a reverse?

Is the auction that I posted correct? If you do decide to start with 1NT as the OP did, and south bids 2♣, and then ignores North's ♠ response and then bids 3♣ to show interest in slam, how exactly does the auction go from there? First of all, if you wanted to ask for Aces (not saying it's appropriate here, just asking a question), would North use Blackwood 4NT or Gerber 4♣? In any case, North would not want to ask for Aces, since North's concern is whether or not South has at least 2nd round control in diamonds. Does South's 3♣ bid absolutely set clubs as trump, so that north can cue-bid a control? Or would a new suit bid by North be suggesting a new trump suit? Assuming that clubs are absolutely set as trump, North could cue-bid 3♥ to show the A♥ and deny a diamond control. Would South return to 4♣ to show no first round controls that can be bid. Or would South bid 3♠ to show a 2nd round control? In either case, what would North bid? North is still unaware of South's diamond singleton and had no other bid available, as far as I can tell. Am I missing something here?

What is the proper way to bid this hand in SAYC? North wouldn't open 1NT. 1NT shows 15-17 points, and North has 18 points, and there is no reason to downgrade this hand. North would have to open 1♣. But now South has a problem. South has strong support for clubs, and has more than enough strength to force a game. But SAYC doesn't have a game-forcing minor suit raise. South also has no 4 card suit to bid, and does not have a balanced hand (so he/she can't bid anything NT). I'm guessing that South would manufacture a bid. I'm guessing 1♥, to keep the bidding as low as possible. North would now bid 2NT, to show 18-19 points and a balanced hand, and deny 4 card support for hearts. What does South do now? South knows that there is enough strength for game in clubs, maybe even slam. But South can't bid Blackwood, since North could be missing both the Ace and King of Hearts, and then they'd be in trouble. And there is no way to cue-bid a suit, since no trump suit has been agreed on. South could jump to 5♣, but now they're too high even to use Blackwood, so they would have to just settle for game. It's also very possible that, if they've resigned to being only in game, that 3NT is better than 5♣, but I see no way to figure that out. However, I do know that although 2NT by North is not a forcing bid, I do know that any other bid by South below game is forcing. So I'm thinking South can bid 3♣ to show game forcing support for clubs, without worrying about being passed by North. Is this enough to set clubs as trump so that they can start cue-bidding? North can't bid Blackwood, since South could be missing both the Ace and King of diamonds (in reality, South has a singleton, so it's ok). I'm guessing that after South bids 3♣, north will cue-bid 3♥ to show the A♥ and deny the A♦. Am I correct? South now knows that every suit has at least 2nd round control, and can bid 4NT, Blackwood. Since North has shown 18 points, he must have at least 1 ace, since there are only 16 remaining HCP in the deck without including aces. (In the unlikely scenario that North bids 5♦ to show only 1 Ace, south can bid 5♥ which North will correct to 5NT.) In the real auction, North will bid 5♥ to show 2 Aces: Hearts, and another suit (either diamonds or spades). South knows that only 1 ace is missing, and has second round control in both diamonds and spades, so South will sign off in 6♣. Am I correct about this auction? Thanks. On another note: in the auction that manudude03 posted, what does the 2♠ bid by South mean? I thought that bid meant a weak hand with a long minor suit. South's hand is much too strong for that. If it's natural, it would mean a weak hand with long spades, which doesn't apply either. It's obviously a conventional response, but I don't know what it means.

Thanks, your response was very helpful. One thing I wonder about is, if you "manufacture" a jump-shift to a 3 card suit, in order to avoid jumping all the way to 4 of a major with a strong hand and a 6 card suit, is there a danger that responder could jump all the way to game with only 4 card support, and bypassing 3NT and possibly 4 of your 6 card major? I am well aware that "points" does not mean HCP only. My understanding is: 1. When bidding NT, count HCP only. 2. When bidding a suit, count distribution points: 1 point for a 5 card suit, 2 points for a 6 card suit, etc. 3. When raising a major suit, count dummy points for shortness: 5 points for a void, 3 points for a singleton, 1 point for a doubleton. Do not count dummy points if the short suit is the major that your partner bid. 4. Aces are really worth slightly more than 4 points; Kings are really worth slightly more than 3 points. Queens are really worth slightly less than 2 points; Jacks are really worth slightly less than 1 point. Tens are really worth slightly more than 0 points. So, you can upgrade a hand with a lot of Aces, Kings, and Tens, and downgrade a hand with a lot of Queens and Jacks. About opening bids: my understanding is that in 1st or 2nd seat, you should use the Rule of 20: if your HCP plus total number of cards in 2 longest suits is 20 or greater, then open; if it's less than 20, then Pass. In 4th seat, I know the Rule of 15 says if your HCP plus number of spades is 15 or greater, then open; if it's less than 15, then Pass. I don't think there is any official "rule" for 3rd seat. The other type of bid that the auction in this thread did not cover is a reverse: a 2 level non-jump bid of a suit higher ranking than opener's first suit: I beleive that this shows 16-21 points and 4 cards in the suit. Since your partner is unlikely to have support for that suit (or he/she wouldn't have bypassed it), it is used more to show strength than to suggest that suit as trump. It would be interesting if someone would post a complete guide to SAYC. These posts have many details that are not in the official SAYC booklet. I don't think that this is all officially compiled anywhere.

My understanding is that each available rebid by opener, in this auction, would have the following meaning in SAYC (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1NT: 13-14 points, balanced hand, denies 4 spades 2♣: 13-18 points, 4 clubs, denies 4 spades, unbalanced hand 2♦: 13-18 points, 4 diamonds, denies 4 spades or 4 clubs, unbalanced hand 2♥: 13-15 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand 2♠: 13-15 points, 4 card spade support 2NT: 18-19 points, balanced hand, denies 4 spades 3♣: 19-21 points, 4 clubs, denies 4 spades, unbalanced hand 3♦: 19-21 points, 4 diamonds, denies 4 spades or 4 clubs, unbalanced hand 3♥: 16-18 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand 3♠: 16-18 points, 4 card spade support 3NT: it would be a signoff in NT. I have no idea why you would use it at this point in the auction, so I assume you wouldn't use it 4♣: no official meaning in SAYC. Can be used as a splinter bid, showing 19-21 points, 4 card spade support, and a void or singleton in clubs 4♦: no official meaning in SAYC. Can be used as a splinter bid, showing 19-21 points, 4 card spade support, and a void or singleton in diamonds 4♥: 19-21 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand. I don't really understand this bid, since your partner could be void in hearts, and then you'd be in trouble 4♠: 19-21 points, 4 card spade support 4NT: Blackwood, with (I think) spades as trump 5♣, 5♦: undefined. In another thread, someone said they are used as "Voidwood" to bid blackwood with a void in that suit 5♥, 5♠: undefined, and I see no reason to use them 5NT: Garnd slam force with (I think) spades as agreed trump In any case, the appropriate bid here would be 2♣. Responder could pass with 6-9 points and a preference for clubs rather than spades. But since responder will know that you could have as many as 18 points, he/she will probably try to continue bidding, unless he/she has real garbage. With 18 points, maybe you could stretch and make a jump shift to 3♣, since you probably have game unless responder has real garbage, but that could get you in trouble if responder thinks you have a much stronger hand. It could depend on what your spot cards are.

I did not know that. That makes sense, since it makes no sense to pre-empt over a pre-empt anyway. Even though North has 7 clubs and only 4 spades and 2 diamonds, I'm guessing you say North should double, since a jump overcall to 4♣ would bypass 3NT. Even over a takeout double, it is unlikely that South would jump to 5♦. Yes, as I said South is not likely to jump to 5♦ no matter what hand he has. All of my questions were in response to this hand, which was posted on the Novice / Beginner forum.

I thought that you could make a takeout double for any hand too strong for a simple overcall, even if you have only 1 suit. Isn't this supposed to be the Novice / Beginner Forum? What I was thinking was, North has at most 1 loser (a diamond), assuming South has the K♠, which he probably does if he opened 2♠. But if South also has the K♦, which he does, North / South won't lose any diamond tricks, so they can make 7♠ instead of just 6♠. The only way to find out if South has the K♦ is to ask. If instead South bids 3♥ (showing a mostly useless A or K of hearts), or 3♠ (showing a weak hand), or 3NT (showing a strong hand but no outside A or K), then you know to only bid 6♠. But none of those will show whether or not South has the K♦, which is important. Again, you can assume that he has the K♠, since you know that you have the A, Q, and 10, and it is not likely that he would have opened 2♠ with only the J♠. I'm confused. There was another thread where someone said that he got in trouble for overcalling 1♦ over 1♣ without an appropriate hand. But you are saying that's legal? I'm confused. I'm guessing what you mean is this: If you claim to play Weak 2's, but every time you have a strong hand with diamonds open 2♠, and your partner knows that, then that is illegal. But if you usually play Weak 2's, but decide, in order to ruin an opponent's chance of finding the right contract, to open 2♠ even though you have a strong hand with diamonds, and are willing to go down, then that is legal. I'm also guessing that if, for example, every time your opponents bid Blackwood you bid 6♠ so that they miss their slam, then that would be illegal. But if you have an agreement and disclose it that a 6♠ overcall over opponent's Blackwood incidates a certain type of hand (maybe a hand where you'd be willing to sacrifice in spades), then it is legal to make that bid, even if you don't actually hold an appropriate hand. Am I correct?

♠ I thought that a double of a game contract or higher was for penalty. How would you know that North's double was not for penalty in this case? How will South know that 5♠ is safe? For all South knows, North could be void in spades. I thought that in SAYC, with 5-8 HCP, you retreat to 3 of your original suit, 3♠ in this case. With 9-11 HCP, you can bid a new suit to show a feature (Ace or King), or 3NT without a feature. In this case, 3♦ would show 9-11 HCP and either the Ace or King of diamonds (obviously the King, since north has the Ace). But South has only 8 HCP, not 9. I'm guessing if you claim to play Weak 2's, then it's ok, as long as 2♠ shows a weak hand with spades. I'm guessing you wouldn't get in trouble unless you completely lie, such as using 2♠ to show a strong hand with diamonds, or if you made a random bid just to be a jerk. Am I correct?

Now I'll look at the competitive aspects of the auction, which I ignored before. I thought that under the letter of the law, in order to open with a weak 2 bid, you needed either 2 of the top 3 honors, or 3 of the top 5 honors. South has neither, so technically he shouldn't open 2♠, and should pass. West does have 3 of the top 5 heart honors, so west can open 2♥. Things will now go badly for North / South. North, having too strong a hand for an overcall, will Double. East, following the law of total tricks, will raise to 5♥, since they have 11 hearts between them. South, with a weak hand, won't want to compete at such a high level, and will pass. West will pass. North now has a problem. Despite a strong hand, he can't show his club suit, since he'd have to go to the 6 level. For all he knows, South could be void in clubs. He wouldn't want to bid 5♠ either. Again, for all he knows, South could be void, and he could be doubled and beaten badly. He wouldn't want to make a penalty double either, since he is void in hearts, and knows that south has only 2 hearts, most likely weak ones. What should North bid? Or, can we just say that west's pre-emptive opening and east's pre-emptive raise had the intended effect. Even though south isn't really supposed to open 2♠, things go better if he does. West will probably pass. North will probably raise to 6♠, since south probably has the K♠, and north expects to lose only 1 diamond trick, not knowing that south has the K♦. I'm thinking another option for north would be, rather than 6♠, to bid 2NT. Unfortunately, with only 8 HCP, south will probably retreat to 3♠; hopefully north will still raise to 6♠. However, if south cheats a little, and bids 3♦ in order to show the K♦, north can then confidently bid 7♠, knowing that they won't lose a trick. It's interesting how North / South only reach a grand slam if they "cheat" a little: opening a Weak 2 with a suit that isn't technically strong enough, and showing a maximum weak 2 and a feature with only 8 HCP. In an officially sanctioned game, would East / West be able to complain to the director that North / South used bids that technically showed other than what they had in their hands (South showed stronger spades than he had, and showed 9-11 HCP when he only had 8)?

I thought that you weren't supposed to use Blackwood (RKCB or otherwise) with a void. When south shows 1 keycard, how does north know whether it is the very important K♠, or the mostly useless A♥?

I thought that in order to make a positive response like 2♠, you needed at least 3 of the top 5 honors. Or is any 6 card suit ok? I guess the logic is that if south doesn't have the K♠, you will almost certainly lose a spade trick, but probably won't lose anything else.

Thanks, Cyberyeti and Awm for your help. I'm still not sure how the auction would go if South bids 2♦. We agree north would then bid 3♣ and then south would bid 3♠. How can north then show support for spades? It seems north can't raise to 4♠ since that would be a signoff. 5♠ would get you too high for Blackwood. And there is no way to cuebid, since you haven't yet agreed to spades as trump, so a new suit bid would appear as if you don't have spade support and are trying to choose a new trump suit. So, is 5NT, grand slam force the only option, and South would just assume Spades are the trump suit since it was the last suit mentioned? If South bids 2♠, then I assume the auction would go something like: North - South 2♣ - 2♠ 3♠ - 4♦ 5NT - 7♠ (or 6♠ if south follows the letter of the law)

Thanks, AWM. You're right, I should have said that north would bid 3♠ over a 3♣ bid by south. Anyway, if north opens 2♣, let's say that south bids 2♠ as you suggest. North will probably raise to 3♠ to show spade support. Now what? How does south know whether to sign off in 4♠ (which would be a mistake), or to bid blackwood, which would be dangerous with a weak hand and not even a single ace? South can't cuebid either, with no first round control in any suit? I'm lost, to be honst. Let's say that south bids 2♦ instead. North will bid 3♣, and south will bid 3♠. You suggested that north just jump all the way to 6♠. Isn't that dangerous without the king of trumps? Even if you use RKCB, it won't help, since north has a void. You also suggested 5NT, grand slam force. Having only one of the top 3 honors (and no real way to know that north has 2 of the top 3 honors), south will probably bid 6♠. But that still doesn't tell whether or not south has the king of trumps. I'm guessing that north should cuebid 4♣ to show the A♣. Would south then just retreat to 4♠? If so, then north would probably bid 5♦ to show the A♦. The auction is now too high for south to use Blackwood. South will probably bid 5♠, probably ending the auction. Obivously, I am missing something. What am I missing? Again, I'm just talking about simple methods. Since this is the novice / beginner forum, I feel it is reasonable for me to ask these questions. Thanks again.

Does anyone have any answers to my questions? Thank you.

I'm a complete newbie, and am trying to understand how the strong auctions work. For now, let's focus on north / south, and ignore the competitive aspects for now, so I can better understand the strong auctions. North will open 2♣, the strong 2♣. South will probably respond 2♦, since even though he has more than 7 points and 6 spades, the spades aren't that strong. North will then bid 3♣, since clubs are his longest suit. South doesn't have a fit for clubs, but has a reasonable hand and a decent spade suit, so he'll probably bid 2♠ next. North has a fit for spades, so he'll probably raise to 3♠. After that, I don't know. How does sounds know how strong north is? Obviously, the belong in at least game. But would 4♠ be seen as a signoff? I see nothing about south's hand that would suggest slam. But let's say that south wants to gamble, and bids 4NT, Blackwood. How does north respond to show 3 aces and a void? I know to show 1 ace and a void you bid your void suit at the 6 level if the void is lower ranking than the trump suit, or bid the trump suit at the 6 level to show a void higher ranking than the trump suit. I know that to show 2 aces and a void you bid 5NT. But I have no idea how to show 3 aces and a void. Do you just ignore the void? Or is there a way to show it? Realistically, I doubt that south would bid blackwood anyway. South has no first round control to cuebid. Should south just raise to 4♠? Would that be a signoff? Or should south cuebid 4♦ to show the K♦? What would north do next? Let's say south bids 4♠ and it's not a forceoff. North has a first round control in every suit, but cannot bid Blackwood since he has a void. North is mostly interested in finding out if south has the K♦ and K♠. A cuebidding sequence can locate the K♦, but I'm not 100% sure how. But what about the K♠? North can't bid the grand slam force either, since he has 2 of the top 3 honors in spades. Even if you play RKCB, north can't bid that either, with a void in hearts. Again, I'm just asking about really simple, newbie techniques. Not complicated things like "voidwood". The other possible fork would be if after north opens 2♣ if south bids 2♠. I'm guessing north would raise to 3♠, and then we are back where we were above. Thanks.

Thanks again to AWM and FromageGB. Is there anywhere that lists all of the details of SAYC for a total novice? The booklet that I've seen online leaves out many details, such as the 2/1 auction that was described by AWM. If not, maybe someone can start a thread listing all of the details. Thanks again.

Thanks for all that. Just out of curiosity, where did you get all that info from? If it's not in the SAYC book, then is this just your personal agreements, or is this official? A few questions below: So, there is no way to show support for responder's suit with 13-14 points? Also, is it ok to rebid a 5 card major? And, you could potentially be forced to rebid a 3 card diamond suit, if you have 4 in each major and only 2 clubs, and if the responder bids 2♣. You don't have another suit that can be bid below diamonds, and you can't bid 2NT it seems, so would 2♦ be the right bid? So that doesn't limit your hand to 13-14 points? I assume that means specifically 18-19 points. With 15-17 you would have opened 1NT, and with 20-21, you would have opened 2NT. I think SAYC requires you to open 1NT or 2NT even with a 5 card major. Is that only for a suit that is higher ranking than responder's suit but lower ranking than opener's first suit? I assume you would not do that for a suit lower ranking than your first suit (you'd have to go to the 4 level, bypassing 3NT), or for a suit higher ranking than your original suit? Again, that doesn't limit your hand to 13-14 points? In practice, when playing SAYC online, do people typically play as you suggested in your post? Or do people typically play 2NT being non-forcing and 13-14 points? Thanks again.

Thanks. Is it fair to say that the meaning of 2NT by opener after a 2/1 response in SAYC is controversial? It seems to me that it would make the most sense for it to be invitational and to indicate 13-14 points. But is there anything saying that it means otherwise in SAYC? As for new suits by opener, it seems: Lower ranking than responder's suit: must be bid at 3 level, and is forcing, showing 15-21 points Higher ranking than responder's suit, but lower ranking than opener's first suit: 2 level is ivitational, showing 13-14 points. To force to game and show 15+ points, jump to 3 level Higher ranking than opener's first suit: 2 level is forcing, showing 15-21 points Is this all correct? If you have 13-14 points and can't bid your suit (either it's lower ranking than responder's suit, or higher ranking than your first suit), then I guess you just have to make a judgment call? Thanks.

Everything I read is very vague about how to continue the auction when responder bids a new suit at the 2 level (after opener opens at the 1 level) in SAYC. I know that in SAYC, bidding a new suit by responder at the 2 level shows 10 or more points. I'm guessing then opener should evaluate his/her hand as either minimum (13-14 points) or maximum (15 or more points, forcing to game). But I don't know exactly how the auction should continue. To show 13-14 points, I assume you have the following options: 1. Raise resonder's suit to the 3 level. 2. Bidding 2NT with a balanced hand. 3. Rebidding original suit at the 2 level. 4. There must be a way to show a new suit. But at what level? To show 15 or more points, you'd want to force to game. I'm guessing the options are: 1. Raise responder's suit to game (or 3NT if responder bids a minor and you want to play in NT) 2. Bidding 3NT witih a balanced hand and 18-19 points. 3. Does rebidding the original suit at the 3 level force to game? Or only invite game? 4. How would you bid a new suit and force to game? Do you have to bid a reverse or jump-shift? Or does any new suit force to game? Thank you.

If your partner opens and your RHO overcalls, I read conflicting information as to what a cuebid of oponent's suit by responder means. I have read (including in the SAYC document) that it is forcing to game, and usually shows strong support for operner's suit. But most other sources I read say that it shows a limit raise or better, and that a 3 level raise (normally a limit raise) would be pre-emptive. Which is correct? Or is it just a matter of preference? It seems to me that it would make more sense for it to show a limit raise or better, and free up a 3 level raise for a pre-emptive raise. It seems to me that if your parter was able to open and your oponent was able to overcall, it would be fairly unlikely that you would have enough points to force to game, and that a pre-emptive raise would be more useful. Or am I wrong? Thanks.

One more question: after Strong 2♣, assuming responder bids 2♦, what do you do if your hand is 4-4-4-1 shape? You can't bid 2NT or 3NT, since that would show a balanced hand. And bidding 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, or 3♦ would show a 4 card suit. Is that just a matter of judgment, and you have to decide which bid is the least inaccurate? Or is there an official answer, such as, treating it as balanced, or opening your lowest ranking 4 card suit, or your strongest 4 card suit? Thanks.

Thanks, everyone. I guess I should have said that I was asking about the standard approach for responding with Strong 2♣. SAYC says almost nothing at all about it. Does that mean that there is no standard, and that it's up to an individual partnership to come up with their own agreements? What if you are playing online with someone you don't normally play with? Or, is there some standard? If so, what is it? Thanks.

One more question, if on the first bid, responder bids 2NT, showing 8 or more points and a balanced hand, are conventions such as Stayman and Jacoby Transfers on? If not, how does the bidding continue from there? Thanks.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen that convention before, and I'm always surprised to see it, since it has a very good chance of having a very weak hand as the declarer in a hearts contract. If the opener has a strong enough hand to open 2♣, then there is a very good chance that responder has a very weak hand, and would bid 2♥. Most likely, you are headed for a game contract, most likely, either 3NT, 4♥, or 4♠, so you have a good chance of the weak side being declarer. Isn't that best to be avoided?

Thanks for your help. I understand now how Strong 2♣ works when opener bids a major, but I'm still not sure how it works when opener bids a minor. It seems it's different depending on whether opener bids clubs or diamonds. Maybe I need to think of it separately. If the opener bids 3♣, then it seems that the responder's choices are: Weak hand, no support: Bid 3♦, cheapest minor second negative. Opener will most likely sign off in 3NT, although, at least in theory, he/she can sign off in 4♣. Weak hand, support: I'm guessing you would still bid 3♦. You don't want to jump to 5♣, and you don't want to bypass the likely contract of 3NT. Decent hand, no support: I'm guessing you can bid 3 of a major. What about 3NT? I'm guessing no way to show diamonds. Decent hand, support: I'm guessing you can bid 4♣, since slam is possible. Is there any way for opener to sign off in 4NT if slam isn't possible and you don't want to play 5♣. I assume 4NT is blackwood. If the opener bids 3♦, then it seems the responder's choices are: Weak hand, no support: Bid 3NT, most likely ending the auction Weak hand, support: I'm guessing still 3NT. Decent hand, no support: I'm guessing you can bid 3 of a major. Maybe 4 clubs? Decent hand, support: I'm guessing you can bid 4♦ since slam is possible. Is there any way for opener to sign off in 4NT if slam isn't possible and you don't want to play 5♦? Again, I assume 4NT is blackwood. Thanks again for your help.