SixOfWands

I'm not bothered about fourth seat it hardly ever happens and yes you can pass. You don't have to bid 9-13 1NT just because it's in the system!

I'm not sure I follow these arguments but thanks for the feedback, in my view any feedback will either convince me more or less and either is a good thing. Point 1 since we are considering whether it is better to open when the opportunity arises, the fact that the opponents may open is irrelavent. Given that both system have the same opponents this will happen with the same frequency. Point 2 If my partner opens 9+ with 9-11 and the opponents pre-empt then I'm in a much better place than if he passed. If my partner opened 9+ with 12 points I'm not doing that badly in comparison to if he opened 12+ especially if my bid shows a five card suit. The net effect has to be positive I'd say. The 9-11 range will happen more than the 12-14 range just because it's more common being 27% compared to 20% of all hands! http://www.bridgehands.com/P/Probability_HCP.htm Sound reasonable?

It's not really rocket science... When partner opens 1NT 9-13 Bid game with 15+ invite to game with 13, 14 and partner will put you into game with 11-13. You miss no 26 point games and the only 25 point game you miss is...Opener 11 Responder 14 In this situation if you pass in SAYC some pairs will invite to show 10, 11 and some will bid 3NT and some stay in 2NT. The pairs in 2NT can't beat playing in 1NT and the pairs in 3NT will beat you slightly more than half the time. Overall not a disaster! When we bid 24 point 3NT games we will not be alone either. You do need to be disciplines and use judgement playing a mini but it does work!

Thanks for your thoughts straube. On your first point one only has to look at the different systems played in different countries to know that conformity is relative. In club bridge in England playing a strong NT is considered stuffy or paranoid. I've just had a look at my bridge database of all trials and internationals since the 90s and found thousands of 1NT openers in the 8-11 range. Years ago I created a computer program that would deal mini NT hands for me and let me quickly bid them, it soon because apparent that it was a big winner non-vulnerable and a winner at pairs vulnerable. If you don't believe me I take the structure I suggest on www.forcingclub.co.uk and try playing it exactly as explained non-vulnerable and see what happens to you. If you play it for a few months to even out the scores and check your match points I think you'll be pleasently supprised! (If it doesn't fit with five card majors then make 1C forcing and rebid 1NT in the 14-16 range or something like that) Also given that we believe that 1NT is a winner it's easy to see how opening it more often would be a bigger winner, you just have to accept that 5 point ranges are good enough - and for most systems in most situations they are. Don't knock it til you've tried it right?

If you bid with 9-11 you tend to be in first seat more so I'm not sure what you mean. The system I'm suggesting opens a significantly higher proportion of hands that SAYC, Acol or Precision. On the second point it doesn't use wider ranges than SAYC or Acol, their suit openings and suit rebids are generally at least five point ranges for instance... 1♣ 1♥ 2♣ shows 11-15 five clubs 1♠ 1NT 2♣ shows 11-18 points 5 spades four clubs - that's and 8 point range! I'm just applying a similar degree of accuracy so that I can open 1NT more because it gets me tops.

Thanks, Sadly in the UK the minimum for a strong club is 16 HCP but right now I'm fairly happy with the basic structure. I'd be interested to see a post of your system if you get one together, Nigel

Hi Thanks for that, What you're describing there is very similar, just a wider NT and 9 point openings. Your links seem to be describing quite different systems though. Interesting nevertheless. Nigel

Hi Awm, Thanks for your post, well thought out criticism and very welcome. Here’s the way I look at the problems you’ve suggested… 1. You do miss some 4-4 major suit fits when you play a mini NT 9-13 anyway, even without a 4441 shape. This is kind of par for the course with this bid. What we are aiming to do here is shut the opponents out by taking out a level of bidding and not really telling them what we have. However we don’t ever lose a 5-4 major suit fit because we open five card majors 1Major and responder always makes a weak pull to a major if he has five. Responder can also show a mildly constructive spade hand 11+ five spades by bidding our 2C relay first (this is a bit complex so I’ll refer you to here…http://www.forcingclub.co.uk/1nt-opener.php). We also can bid 1NT with 4315, 3415, 3451 and 3451 shapes too since partner only pulls to a six card minor generally unless doubled. If partner pulls to a five card suit when doubled we can pull to the next suit up for takeout (squirm). 2. We are allowed to open 2C 9-13 with a five card or six card suit and a singleton major but we prefer 1NT generally with five clubs. We can indeed miss a major suit fit here as you need 13+ to do anything other than raise. However we are considering leaving this opening to third and fourth seat and passing instead for the reasons you give. What do you think of pass on these 9-13 club hands? 3. See 2. 4. I’ve been playing a wide mini NT for some time and the style I suggest with five point ranges is this. With a minimum of 24 HCP between you play in 3NT, with a minimum 22 raise to 2NT and partner puts you in game with a minimum of 24. You find all 26 point games and play in some 24 and 25 point games too. With marginal values at match points it makes little difference if you bid game because there is about a 50% change it will make – you can get a top underbidding as well as over-bidding! 5. The argument for a 10 point suit range is simple, in SAYC and Acol a five point range is fine for weaker rebids… 1C 1H 2C 11-15 and an 11-18 point range is also normal in this situation… 1D 1H 2C 11-18 points So if it’s fine there then it’s fine in the system I’m suggesting, we just respond with a point more 8+ rather than 6+. When playing SAYC or Acol I divide my range into 11-15 or 16-20 and then split these two ranges in exactly the same way as I described in point 4. Second point on missing games is that we have two types of raise to 2 of a major available so we can find some tight games based on a ten or nine card fits using our weak pre-empts… 1H 2H 0-7 three card support 3H 0-7 four card support 4H 0-7 five card support 6. Opening with five card 9 counts is better than opening 12 for two reasons. Firstly you can raise very aggressively and quickly when partner opens a nine count. 9-11 is the most frequent three point range so this happens a lot. Secondly because you limit your range to 18 HCP rather than 20 in SAYC partner can safely pass with 6 or 7 and you can actually play in 1D/H/S. I have had several tops making 1Suit when others go down in two!

Thanks for that... So 1C is always 14+ and can be... 1. 14-18 five clubs, balanced no five card diamonds hearts or spades, 4441 any shortage or 2. all 19+ hands yes we would open 1NT on the hand you describe.

I'm not that interested in definitions to be honest more interested in discussions with someone who has played a similar system so weak openings and a forcing club 14+ based on a Polish Club.

Thanks for this, I'm interested. I reckon if you prefer a weak NT and you want to play a Polish Club this is the way works. You can promise more points with your 1C which can only help responder if the opponents pre-empt. Also you have limited your hand much more than a "Strong" Club 14+ and in any case strong clubs on less than 16 are banned in England. You right about the immediate fit, it is nice when partner finds one and in this system you can raise immediately about 2/3 of the time (over the majors) which is much better than passing I'd say. The average TNT on a hand with a five card suit is more than 17.5 so on average you will be able to compete to the three level if you get in early.

A Polish Club is Defined as Follows... A small club is a system where 1C is forcing but not necessarily strong. A Polish Club is a form of small club where 1C is forcing and unlimited but not necessarily strong. The strength of NT makes no difference to this definition but it's normal to play a strong NT. On your second point, you would know, had you read my link that I have given it another name... N x :rolleyes:

Yes I have just switched from a strong diamond (like precision) but the problem with both systems is that you can't show a five card major straight away with 16-18 HCP you have to make a strong opening. With this system you can raise five card ♦ ♥ or ♠ in the 9-11 range (which you pass in SAYC) and also get to raise them with 16-18 (which you bid 1C in precision or 1D in strong diamond). Another thing I don't like about precision is the 1D opener, it says virtually nothing useful, it's very frequent and you don't have enough room to bid over it and you can rarely raise it (three or two card suit!). It's not that useful to know your partner has 11 hcp when you don't know the suit of 11 of his cards. At least in a strong diamond you have a 1D relay over your catch all 1C opener so you can show five card majors by responding in a major (www.strongdiamond.co.uk for full details). Precision 1D sucks eggs. Anyone tried this kind of Polish Club?

Hi Guys, I've devised a system based on a Polish Club for match point pairs that I've detailed here... forcing club It features a forcing and unlimited club bid on 14+ HCP that is the usual Polish clubs/balanced/4441 or any 19+ specification. Opening bids are light and aggressive on 9+ five card diamonds, hearts, spades and 2C five card 9-13. I'd be interested to know people's thoughts especially if you've played a Polish Club. Nigel

I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.