Annoying opponents!

[Walddk]

I have got two bidding problems for you, well at least I think that one has a problem.

 

1.

♠ KJ3

♥ Q8

♦ Q862

♣ 10964

 

Fourth in hand, the opponents are vulnerable, you are not. LHO opens 4♥, double by partner (take-out), pass to you. What is your bid?

 

----

 

2.

♠ void

♥ AKQ863

♦ K987

♣ 1097

 

Third in hand this time; again opps are vul and you are not. Your partner opens a natural 1♣, 4♠ from RHO. Now it's you. Very annoying when they pre-empt, but that's what pre-empts are for. Good luck!

 

Roland

[jdeegan]

:unsure:

On both hands I think I am not that clever, just a simple country fellow. Fear dominates over greed on both.

 

On the first I have to try 4♠ and hope the putative 4-3 fit works out because of my relatively robust high card holding.

 

On the second, I do not have any spades, so I am going to try to play the hand at 5♥.

 

If you have any clever solutions, I would love to hear them. Hands like these give me gas.

[han]

Perhaps the first problem is not hard, but certainly unpleasant. I would also try 4S.

 

 

I like the second hand so much that I will give it a 4NT followed by 4H. This shows a better hand than 4H directly. 4NT ostensibly shows the red suits, but partner will know what's going on when I pull to 5H.

[the hog]

In the days of my callow youth I would have bid 4S on the first hand. These bids work out better in theory than in practice. Now I think 4NT is best.

 

Hand 2 is a 5H bid.

[Guest Jlall]

wow 4S on the first? I also thought this was a non problem but I would pass. Takeout should not be taken too literally. Partner would double with any balanced strong NT or better. We are only expected to pull if we are shapely (or have 5 spades) and usually we would expect to make. A good rule is to always pass with a balanced hand unless it has 5 spades.

 

On the second it's interesting. You can bid 5H, 4N followed by 5H, or 4N planning to pass, or 4N planning to raise whatever partner bids. 4N followed by pass is risky, imagine partner with 4333 bidding 5D over 4N. So I will bid hearts. The question is am I strong enough for 4N followed by 5H, and what happens if LHO bids 5S over 4N? I'm not worried about that...if partner bids 6 of a suit, I will produce a good dummy. So I'll bid 4N planning on bidding 5H because my spade void is very powerful.

[Walddk]

Takeout should not be taken too literally. Partner would double with any balanced strong NT or better.

I agree Justin, but I need to point out that it's take-out since many do not play take-out doubles this high. Some play it through 2♠, others through 3♠, and for them double of 4♥ would be for business.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

Oh, I know, but my point was just this is not like 1H-X. Taking out with any random hand like this because pard can often beat 4H but he will not be able to beat 1H when he Xs.

[Guest Jlall]

4NT ostensibly shows the red suits, but partner will know what's going on when I pull to 5H.

I think 4N is either:

 

diamonds and clubs (with at least 2 more diamonds)

diamonds and hearts

good 5H bid.

 

Basically I agree with you, but I think pard will bid on the assumption that we have the first hand type until we clarify instead of bidding on the assumption of the reds.

[EricK]

Pass on the first - 4 tricks are easier than 11.

 

5♥ on the second. I don't think I am quite strong enough for 4NT followed by 5♥. I don't like xxx in partner's suit, and the ♥ are not solid enough in the face of likely bad breaks with no guarantee of support from partner. Call me a coward if you must!

 

Eric

[whereagles]

1. Pass.

2. 5H.

[Guest Jlall]

Pass on the first - 4 tricks are easier than 11.

Exactly, and if we can make 11 tricks we will probably get 500 off of them. 11 is alot of tricks, and it is unlikely when we are this flat and have such defensive values that we will make that many and not have a compensating penalty against them, especially at this vulnerability. Really the best time to bid is if they are making, but then it is hard to imagine not going for 500. Partner would need a heart void which is extremely unlikely, and them making is also very unlikely given that we have 8 HCP and partner has Xed.

 

For those that don't agree that this is a clear pass, I would really urge you to do a simulation. If someone does, let me see the results, I will be prepared to eat my words. IMO these are the best types of hands for simulation.

[Walddk]

Pass on the first - 4 tricks are easier than 11.

Indeed or really(?) as you please. Remind me not to double 4♥ with

 

AQxx

void

KJxxx

KQJx

 

or similar as I will lose a double game swing.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

yep for sure if pard has a heart void its right to pull. but its a question of percentages, and I really think pard is odds against to have a heart void.

[kfgauss]

I think 4N is either:

 

diamonds and clubs (with at least 2 more diamonds)

diamonds and hearts

good 5H bid.

Why not clubs & hearts?

 

Also, I don't know how to run real simulations, but I put the first hand into Jack and asked it to "Analyze this position" (it generates 1000 possible hands and double dummy analyzes them I think) and it spat out: (annoyingly enough it computes "expected total points")

 

4S = -354

5D = -502

5C = -542

 

(by opps, presumably their expected score:)

4H = 209 [ie our expected score is -209, I think]

5H = -285

6H = -958

 

It presumably assumes your contracts will be doubled when they fail by several tricks (and hopefully always uses 4Hx? more on this below). I don't think this is so accurate, though -- e.g. its displayed definition of partner's double was "hcp=14+" (perhaps it uses a more accurate definition internally for the calculations). (If you care, its displayed definition of 4H was 7-9 playing tricks, 7+ hearts, 3-13 hcp.)

 

I worry, though, that it's correcting afterwards for 4H being doubled or something: its conclusion from this analysis was "Jack's intention: 4S" even though pass seems indicated by the numbers. One should also of course note that something like "the better of 5C and 5D" should be calculated -- Jack can apparently take such things into consideration when coming up with its "intention" but I don't know whether it knows about a 4NT bid.

 

Does anyone have suggestions for better simulators (e.g. which give more than "expected total points" and allow user definitions -- and which preferably could deal with "5C or 5D" type questions)?

 

Andy

 

(For what it's worth, I'm probably a passer on the first hand and a 5H bidder on the second.)

[the hog]

Passing the first hand is very poor. Not only may 4H well make, this sort of thing destroys partnership confidence. Xs are for takeout!

[EricK]

Passing the first hand is very poor. Not only may 4H well make, this sort of thing destroys partnership confidence. Xs are for takeout!

It only destroys partnership confidence if partner doesn't expect you to pass on hands like this.

 

If he does, and you bid and you go down at the 5 level when 4H was going down then there is a danger you will destroy partnership confidence!

 

Eric

[P_Marlowe]

1) Pass, what else?

 

2) 4NT Good Bad, intendeing to big 5H, to show that I am not

strectching

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[han]

I don't double 4H with any 15-17 balanced hand. I don't double with xx AKJx AJx Kxxx. For me, the take-out double is take-out, even though it includes a larger variety of hands than a double of 1H.

 

I play this double quite differently than the double of 4S, which also doesn't show a trump stack but there partner is only expected to pull with a lot of shape.

 

Since the second hand plays well in slam opposite many suitable minimum hands (xxx xxx Ax AQJxx), I think that 4NT is the correct call. Partner can be much better than this.

[mikeh]

Pass stands out on the first hand: I agree entirely with Justin. I strongly suspect that this hand would not make it into, for example, a Bridge World Master Solvers because pass would be virtually unanimous. Will bidding sometimes be right? Of course. Will it usually be right? No. And even if bidding is right, you still have to get to the winning spot. See for instance those who would venture a 4♠ call (aiming for the 3-3 fit opposite a high-level preempt deserves a medal for bravery but will not inspire your teammates). Those who bid 4N will likely reach their best suit: a 4-4 fit at the 5-level. Kudos to them, but I would prefer, frankly, to be the teammates of the ones who went -790.... the 15 imps I lose on this hand will come back on others in the long term.

 

As for partnership confidence, if it is shaken by your pass, you are in the wrong partnership anyway :lol:

 

On the second hand, my first reaction was to blast 6♥. Going through 4N first may be technically superior, but partner will be looking at poor majors.

Qxx Jx Axx AJxxx gives me a great play for slam and he will never bid over 5♥ with that.

 

The vulnerability cuts both ways. If we were red v white, 6♥ has the extra edge that my LHO may well bid 6♠ even when 6♥ was failing. As it is, we can be comfortable that RHO almost certainly has great ♠. This reduces the deck to 30-32 hcp, of which we hold 12 and partner likely holds 12-14. Give partner almost any hand with 12-13 points outside of ♠ and 6♥ will have a play unless trump are foul, in which case 5♥, bid the slow way, will likely also fail.

 

BTW, we can be aggresive here because any minor suit squeeze (a real possibility on many layouts) will probably work.

 

I am going to stick to my first instinct: 6♥.

 

.

[mr1303]

Last time I bid 6H with a hand similar to the second variety after a similar auction. Partner put down a heart void and an 8 card diamond suit (he actually opened 1D). 6D was cold, 6H 3 off

[Guest Jlall]

I think 4N is either:

 

diamonds and clubs (with at least 2 more diamonds)

diamonds and hearts

good 5H bid.

Why not clubs & hearts?

What would the auction 1C 4S 4N p 5D p 5H show. Clubs and hearts or a strong 4H bid. You can't have it both ways but your way is certainly a reasonable way to play it, and I would like to have it if I picked up --- KQxxxx Kxx Kxxx, but with that hand I would just bid 5C and take my chances playing my way.

[Guest Jlall]

Passing the first hand is very poor. Not only may 4H well make, this sort of thing destroys partnership confidence. Xs are for takeout!

Which is why I said the word "takeout" cannot be taken too literally. As I mentioned before, there is a marked difference between 1H-X and 4H-X. In the first one we must bid with junk because 1H X will obviously make, in the second one partner will often be able to set 4H X, and if he cant we will usually be going for a number at the 5 level.

[kfgauss]

I think 4N is either:

 

diamonds and clubs (with at least 2 more diamonds)

diamonds and hearts

good 5H bid.

Why not clubs & hearts?

What would the auction 1C 4S 4N p 5D p 5H show. Clubs and hearts or a strong 4H bid. You can't have it both ways but your way is certainly a reasonable way to play it, and I would like to have it if I picked up --- KQxxxx Kxx Kxxx, but with that hand I would just bid 5C and take my chances playing my way.

So would you also play that e.g. (4S) 4N (here you're second seat) doesn't include clubs+hearts? This would seem like a bigger loss to me. (If you don't, I'm impressed with the specificity of your agreements.)

 

The way I've played these auctions is that if you want to show a good 5H bid, you can try to by bidding 4N, and then you get to if pard bids 5C (else pard just doesn't know whether you have C+H or H). I suppose things could go poorly if there's further bidding by the opponents, but this doesn't seem like such a big deal.

 

----------------

 

Last time I bid 6H with a hand similar to the second variety after a similar auction. Partner put down a heart void and an 8 card diamond suit (he actually opened 1D). 6D was cold, 6H 3 off

 

Perhaps some combination of 4N..5N, 4N..5S, 5N, and 5S can help here if you want to go and bid 6H but want to keep 6C in the picture. I admit, I don't really see something perfect, but perhaps over 5S partner only bids 6C with a rather nice suit (and usually bids 5N)? 5S sounds like a raise, though, I guess, so this is probably wrong. Any thoughts?

 

Andy

[Guest Jlall]

So would you also play that e.g. (4S) 4N (here you're second seat) doesn't include clubs+hearts? This would seem like a bigger loss to me. (If you don't, I'm impressed with the specificity of your agreements.)

nope. In this auction showing a good 5H bid is not nearly as important, and showing clubs and hearts is much more important. There is a notable difference in these auctions, though, that being if you have club support it will not be a big loss to play clubs instead of hearts with clubs and hearts. If they open 4S, you have no assurance of any kind of fit, and a 5C bid shows a suit not "support."

[SoTired]

1) Never 4S. I hate 3-3 fits. Pass has some merit, but opps opened 4H vul vs not so may be only a trick shy and with ♥Qx falling, they could easily make. 4N seems only choice.

 

2) 6H seems right.