curious hand

[sceptic]

bidding goes

 

3 clubs pass 4 spades 4NT

 

what does 4NT show?

[badderzboy]

Can't be to play lol,

 

I would guess pick ♦ or ♥ like sandwich NT at the one-level.

 

The bidding suggests a mad hand 7♣ in one hand 7 ♠ in another I guess ptr has a 55 or better hand in ♦ or ♠s

 

Steve

[kfgauss]

Typically, 4NT in situations like this means "two suits" or "two places to play" (sort of a super "unusual 2NT" if you haven't seen this sort of thing before) so here it's presumably be a diamond-heart two-suiter (good 5-5 at least).

 

In any case, it shouldn't be Blackwood, which is much less useful than some type of takeout.

 

We also have 5♣ here, which we won't usually, for example if auction had simply started (4♠) 4NT -- where 4NT is typically "some two-suiter" (some play it as takeout if they play optional/penalty doubles of 4♠, and some may play that it's just minors, and would bid 5♦ on 4-1-5-3 distribution, whereas if you played it as any two-suiter you'd have to bid 5♣ so you find a fit when partner has hearts and clubs). It's possible that having 5♣ here has an effect on the meaning of 4NT (for example, one could be longer in one of the suits and the other roughly equal or longer in the other suit), but this "3♣ P 4♠ ?" is a strange sequence to have an actual agreement on unless you play very good general methods. I'd guess that 5♣ shows slam interest, but whether it should be taken as 5-5 or whether advancer should cater to single-suiters (e.g. bidding 5♦ if you wouldn't accept a slam try opposite a good 5♦ bid), I have no idea. Neither meaning will have an effect on 4NT, and I really shouldn't be rambling about this here I suppose... retroactively ignore this paragraph if you so desire.

 

Andy

[the hog]

This shows a 2 suited hand with longer Ds than Hs. With longer Hs than Ds bid 5C.

[Guest Jlall]

reds. the hog's suggestion makes sense as well in a good partnership, though I would mention one of them has to be bid with equal length (4N probably).

[sceptic]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa986haq52d972cqt&w=s4h83dk63cj987654&e=skqjt732h96dajck3&s=s5hkjt74dqt854ca2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 3♣    Pass  4♠    4NT

 Pass  5♥    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

I asked as I was unsure what to do at the table, my p who I play with occasionaly in tourneys, only have the following agreements 2/1 bergen, jac 2nt and 1403, but he is a good player. (and seems to have a talent for bailing me out when I screw up)

 

Ron says it should be bid with longer Diamonds than hearts and 4 Clubs with longer hearts than diamonds. I did not quite have the bid, but thought not vuln it was worth a shot.

 

I am curious what x would show as it was feasable that my p has a penalty pass here and would assume I had the same hand as my 4NT bid

 

 

another reason for asking is that this is the bidding at the table for the next hand, I just thought it was an amazing coincidence

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa986haq52d972cqt&w=s4h83dk63cj987654&e=skqjt732h96dajck3&s=s5hkjt74dqt854ca2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     3♣    Pass  4♠

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[Guest Jlall]

south was pretty adventurous here...he caught a great hand with pard and it still wasn't right. could have worked though.

[sceptic]

reds. the hog's suggestion makes sense as well in a good partnership, though I would mention one of them has to be bid with equal length (4N probably).

 

I like ur comments Jall, I think you will become a good player one day (tounge in cheek)

 

now for my next questions.

 

I like to be a bit creative at times as I do try and think at the table occasionally,

 

I was lucky with both the bids 4NT and 4spades in the two hands shown, they both made with what I think where defensive errors.

 

my question is, should I stop doing things like this at the table (bad practice) or was hand 1 worth a sacrifice and hand 2 was this foolish over my pards premptive 3 club bid?

[Guest Jlall]

your 4S bid on the second hand was very normal. So was your partner's 3C bid on that hand. On the first board 4N could work well but I don't think I'd bid it.

[han]

Well played to make these two contracts!! ;)

[mikeh]

As to whether 4N and 5♣ have specific meanings: it is certainly playable to use, say, 4N as equal reds or better ♦ and 5♣ as better ♥, or the other way around. I would not be comfortable that my expert partner would know which way I went, altho probably he/she'd think that the lower the bid, the better the lower suit.

 

However, I can think of at least two other possible reasons to differentiate between the two calls.

 

You may wish to show or deny a ♣ control: 4N would be reds with no ♣ control, or a minimum hand, while 5♣ would be a good hand (bidding to make, not as a save or two-way action) with a ♣ control. This would be useful for slam bidding.

 

Or you may wish to describe good or bad hands: 4N (say) as a save oriented hand and 5♣ as a strong, bidding to make, hand with no clear statement about a ♣ control (actually, you should reverse these, to allow responder to cooperate with a slam move by bidding 5♣ over 4N, or, if you are really into science, to allow partner to transfer into his preferred red suit... not sure if there is a net advantage to this but thought I would throw it in to demonstrate the range of possibilities)

 

I think that these are logical uses for the bids, so I do not think that a dogmatic '4N means this, and 5♣ means that' is an appropriate answer except within a partnership that has explicitly discussed this (rare) or has clear defining principles (more common amongst expert partnerships).