How to bid with 4D & 5C?

[Guest Jlall]

in my first rubber bridge game with Bob Hamman I was really hoping he would declare. I picked up:

 

K

AQx

KJxx

Kxxxx

 

and I STILL opened 1N (my LHO said I was hogging the dummy from the fish...)

 

I think sometimes you have no alternative but to open 1N with a stiff sometimes, but it's a rare hand type.

[whereagles]

If the stakes were high, I would open 1♣.

 

If they were low I would have hogged the hand. Bob looks funny when he's dummy... LOL.

[hrothgar]

If I think that the hand is best suited for suit play, I will lie about the relative length of my suits:  For example, holding a 3=1=4=5 hand, I will open 1♦ and rebid 2♣

 

I find this odd :)

 

Let me see: if I think that our partnership's goals probably lie in a suit contract, I will intentionally mislead partner about my distribution.

 

I would have thought that the best way to reach the correct suit contract is to involve partner in an accurate exchange of information.

I "normally" play majors-first opening styles in which an auction like

1M -1N - 2m could show either a four card major and a longer minor or a 5 card major and a four card minor. Furthermore, playing modern MOSCITO, the auction

1S - 1N - 2C could be based on either (5+ Diamonds and 4 Clubs) or (5+ CLubs and 4 Diamonds). Nothing in life is perfect. I'd love to be able to have perfect auctions that accurately define strength both strength and relative length between suits on the first rebid. Sadly, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Playing standard, I'm willing to accept some imprecision in auctions like 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ in order to have much more precision in auctions that I care more about. Specifically, I like to be well positioned in "bread and butter" auctions like

 

1♣ - 1M - 2M

1♣ - 1M - 1N

[Gerben42]

Because it makes it so much easier for my partner after just one bid by opener. Don't we all want to open 1NT as often as possible? That is exactly why I think that 1NT is the only sensible option with that hand.

 

Ah you are just strengthening my argument here. You want to open 1NT as often as possible due to its descriptive nature. However if you open 1NT more often than possible you lose this advantage.

 

Example:

1NT (2♠) X penalty (or p p x p p playing negative double). Partner won't be happy when he suddenly finds out declarer has your 2nd "promised" trump.

 

what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

 

One big minus is playing the wrong 2m-contract. And esthetics.

[hrothgar]

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

Playign "standard" the 2♣ rebid is natural and nonforcing...

Call me crazy, but I prefer that it also shows a hand that would be happy to declare a club contract.

 

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥

I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

 

♠ AK3

♥ 6

♦ KQT9

♣ 65432

[Walddk]

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥

I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

 

♠ AK3

♥ 6

♦ KQT9

♣ 65432

I would hate it too, and it won't happen. But I will not open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♥. I open 1♣, and my rebid will be 1♠.

 

Roland

[han]

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?

Playign "standard" the 2♣ rebid is natural and nonforcing...

Call me crazy, but I prefer that it also shows a hand that would be happy to declare a club contract.

 

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥

I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

 

♠ AK3

♥ 6

♦ KQT9

♣ 65432

Agree with hrothgar, opening 1C on this hand seems terrible. But then, this hand is not 4-5 in the minors by my count.

[Guest Jlall]

Rebidding 5 card minors with any hand imo is awful. I have never had a hand where I have rebid a 5 card minor (although it is theoretically possible). It leads to numerous problems such as:

 

playing 5-1 or 5-0 fits. This is not usually desirable.

Causing partner to misevaluate. He will expect a 6 card suit so a holding like Kx may excite him a LOT (6 tricks he's thinking) only for him to be disappointed.

Missing 4-4 heart fits if your shape is something like 1435 and partner is something like 5422 (less than invite) he will gladly pass you in 2C.

Causing partner to judge wrongly in a competitive auction since he will expect a 6 card suit.

 

I don't see rebidding a 5 card suit as a lesser evil. Oh and to preempt the silly hand construction, yes with K xxx xxxx AKQJT I would open 1C and rebid 2C.

[whereagles]

I don't like the 1D-1x-2C rebid to be either 45m or 54m. I prefer rebidding 2C with 45. Even if it's a xxxxx suit.

 

Rebidding 2C sees you in a 5-1 fit very rarely. Only if resp has 5521 or 5431 are you in trouble. And even then resp can try rebidding his 5-major.

 

Rebidding 2D sees you in a 4-2 fit when a 5-3 fit is available every time responder prefers the wrong minor.

 

Unless you bid 5D-4C hands as 1D-1x-2D, I think rebidding 2D is bound to get you into the wrong partscore more often than rebidding 2C.

[Guest Jlall]

I think you underestimate the chances of getting to a 5-1 fit. For instance I would expect most experts to pass 2C with Qxxxxx Kxx xxx x. I guess if I routinely rebid xxxxx I would have to bid 2S though. 5251, 5431, 5341, 4351 (depending on style, this is the modern one), ecompass a lot of partners possible shapes though. I also agree with you that 1D then 2C is not a very good alternative. That leaves us with...a 1N rebid. This will get you to 5-1 fits sometimes, but much less frequently than rebidding 2C (Partner will not usually rebid a 5 card spade suit). It also enables you to find a heart partscore which will often be your best spot. The only one of those shapes that partner would rebid a 5 card spade suit is 5341, and only if it were a decent suit. 1N also effectively limits your hand much better than a 2C rebid, and it is unlikely partner will evaluate incorrectly and overbid to game with a fitting club honor and prime cards. You also may get to your most likely best partscore, 1N.

[Finch]

I think you underestimate the chances of getting to a 5-1 fit.

 

Well, I've been opening 1C and rebidding 2C on the relevant hand type for nearly 15 years, and I very very seldom play in a 5-1 fit. For it to happen at all, partner has to have a suitable hand to respond at the 1-level in your singleton and pass your rebid, and the opponents have to pass throughout. This doesn't happen very often.

 

You give a long list of supposed disadvantages of this style, but they are only disadvantages if responder is playing a different method. Basically, if you play that you don't open 1C and rebid 2C but your partner does, you will end in the wrong contract. Similarly, if you play that you open 1D or rebid 1NT but your partner doesn't, you will end in the wrong contract. Saying that partner will misevaluate just means that partner is playing a different approach.

 

I believe very strongly that my way is right. But I have a feeling that this could be because I have a lot of experience playing this way, and I understand all the implications for the rest of the auction. The approach you choose affects all your NT bidding and all your auctions after opening 1-minor; you can't pretend it's just a minor adjustment to the methods.

 

I am well aware that Precision players cope quite happily with 1D- 1M-2C showing the minors either way round. But they have (surely they must have?) methods to cope with this, and disambiguate later. For example, I play 1D - 1H - 2H - 2S as an artificial relay. As opener I bid 3C to show a 1354 or possibly 2344 and 3D to show a 1363 or possibly 2353. If my 1D opener and 2H raise could be anything from 2344 to 1345 via 2362, then I'm going to need to change my methods (e.g. only raise 1M to 2M with a singleton, to start with).

 

Similarly, if there are any really expert partnerships around playing that a 1NT opening can be a (31)45 I bet they have seriously detailed agreements about continuations in and out of competition that look totally different to mine, which assume one particular subset of hand types in the 1NT opener and 1NT rebidder.

 

p.s. it also has quite an impact on defence, when you are working out your partner's distribution from limited auction information.

[Guest Jlall]

You give a long list of supposed disadvantages of this style, but they are only disadvantages if responder is playing a different method.

So your partner does not pass with 5341 over 2C? what does he do playing your style? Your partner does not invite game after a 2C rebid with Axxx xxx Kxxx Kx? I guess you miss a lot of games. These "supposed" disadvantages are inherent to the style, they are not about playing "different methods."

 

As for playing a 5-1 fit, the opponents passing throughout goes up in likelihood when they have both already passed. If one of them has bid already you do not face this rebid problem. The question is not "how many times have I played a 5-1 fit?" It's "how many times have I played a 5-1 fit after its gone 1C p 1M p 2C and I had 5 of them?"

[Finch]

Rebidding 5 card minors with any hand imo is awful. I have never had a hand where I have rebid a 5 card minor (although it is theoretically possible). It leads to numerous problems such as:

Now let's try rebidding 1NT instead:

 

playing 5-1 or 5-0 fits. This is not usually desirable.

True. But neither is playing 1NT when we have an 8- or 9- card minor suit fit available and no spade stop. Surely you pass 1NT holding a 4243 after 1C - 1S - 1NT?

 

And now suppose you open 1NT on your 1345 and the next hand overcalls 2S or 3S. How can partner possibly act sensibly when you can have anything from 1 to 5 cards in either major?

 

Causing partner to misevaluate. He will expect a 6 card suit so a holding like Kx may excite him a LOT (6 tricks he's thinking) only for him to be disappointed.

 

Only if you haven't discussed matters. He won't expect a 6-card suit if he knows you rebid 2C on an unbalanced hand with five of them, will he?

 

Missing 4-4 heart fits if your shape is something like 1435 and partner is something like 5422 (less than invite) he will gladly pass you in 2C.

 

True. This is a disadvantage.

 

Causing partner to judge wrongly in a competitive auction since he will expect a 6 card suit.

See my comment above.

 

There's also the other competitive auction when he has no idea what size club fit we have when you rebid 1NT, because you can have anything from 3 to 6 clubs. How does that help him when they protect 1NT?

 

I don't see rebidding a 5 card suit as a lesser evil. Oh and to preempt the silly hand construction, yes with K xxx xxxx AKQJT I would open 1C and rebid 2C.

 

and indeed with K KQx Axxx Jxxxx I would open 1C and rebid 1NT. Let's avoid the silly hand construction.

[Finch]

So your partner does not pass with 5341 over 2C? what does he do playing your style? Your partner does not invite game after a 2C rebid with Axxx xxx Kxxx Kx? I guess you miss a lot of games.

Yes, of course partner passes with a 5341 over 2C. I know that's a disadvantage. I play in 2C in a 5-1 fit while you play in 1NT with a 5341 opposite a 1345. (2C is sometimes the better spot on this layout, by the way.)

 

All this stuff about "evaluation" is about being used to playing particular methos.

 

Telling me "I guess you miss a lot of games" is just being rude, as we've never played each other and you have no idea what my game-bidding-success-rate after a 1m opener is.

[Guest Jlall]

OK so partner is not able to evaluate positively for Hx of clubs? You still haven't told me whether you invite game with the hand I gave or not. The point is not that you MUST have 6 clubs, but usually you will (since you only have 5 on problem shapes). Six is much more likely, and partner will still misevaluate if 85 % of the time you have 6+ clubs. If he is always catering to you having 5 clubs when deciding whether to invite or not, he will be wrong quite frequently on the other 85 % of the hands.

 

Playing 1N despite having a side minor suit fit is perfectly fine with me. 7 tricks is much easier off a suit that partner has bid than 8 tricks is in a 5-1 fit.

 

If you open 1D with 4432, partner in competitive auctions still assumes 4, because it is almost always 4. He has to think you rate to have 4, and payoff to when you have 3. It is the same when you rebid 2C with 1 or 2 specific shapes.

 

As for opening 1N with a stiff, that is very rare (for me). I would only do it with pretty much the hand I gave earlier, so I don't see how that point is valid.

[awm]

Assuming you and partner are on the same page, and play reasonable methods, none of this matters on gamegoing hands. There's plenty of space! The issues will arise when partner is weak or invitational. My preferred solution:

 

(1) Bid 1NT frequently on singleton. This is particularly nice on shapes like 1444, 1435, 1453. It keeps hearts in the picture, which are a likely partial and also the most likely way to reach a game on minimum values. If I were to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on the first hand, then it will be hard to reach hearts short of game (presumably partner cannot bid 2♥ as that would be 4th suit GF). If I open 1♣ and rebid 2♣ on the second hand, it depends somewhat on our agreements about 2♥ (if it's natural and nonforcing, that's fine, but will partner necessarily bid it on 5422 weak). If I bid 1♦ and 2♦ on the last hand, it's very useful to have 2♥ (the minimum call) as an artificial force and I wouldn't want to make it natural and nonforcing (forcing game would then require a 3♣ call, several steps higher).

 

(2) Raise partner frequently with 3-card support. This means that a 1NT rebid almost always has one or two cards in partner's suit -- much easier for partner to make the right choices than if it included between one and three cards. The only likely exception is 4333 shape with 3-card support, which often (but not always!) rebids 1NT. Partner has no need to rebid mediocre 5-card majors since no 5-3 fit will be found (rebidding the major with something like KQJTx and no other high cards is still right of course).

 

Of course, you obviously still need partner to be on the same page. Partner can't blast 4♠ after 1m-1♠-1NT with a bad six-bagger. And you need various checkbacks to enable you to reach 3NT when it's right after 1m-1♠-2♠ (you can deal without these most of the time if you almost never raise on three).

[cherdano]

Because it makes it so much easier for my partner after just one bid by opener. Don't we all want to open 1NT as often as possible? That is exactly why I think that 1NT is the only sensible option with that hand.

 

Ah you are just strengthening my argument here. You want to open 1NT as often as possible due to its descriptive nature. However if you open 1NT more often than possible you lose this advantage.

 

Example:

1NT (2♠) X penalty (or p p x p p playing negative double). Partner won't be happy when he suddenly finds out declarer has your 2nd "promised" trump.

I don't feel this is much of a problem.

1. xx of trumps is not much better than K

2. Since I have devalued my singleton K when opening 1NT, and it is now most likely full value, I have more than I promised and we should have no trouble beating this. (Well, of course there is still this problem of actually getting our tricks on defense...)

 

About 1NT becoming less descriptive: In my view, responder will still judge well if he just assumes that this hand is not possible, and so it becomes less descriptive only in theory. (Of course, if we play a relay method over 1NT where responder can find out about the exact shape, opening 1NT becomes less attractive, as I would have to lie later on.)

 

About misdescribing your hand by opening 1NT: This really feels wrong to me. A singleton K is often useless in a suit contract but helpful in notrump.

 

Btw, I think the issue about rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit is IMO much more dependant on the rest of your style. I only like it if we usually raise partner's major with 3 cards (in which case he will not usually rebid a 5-card suit after hearing my 1NT rebid).

 

Arend

[mikeh]

It was easy to predict that this thread would generate a lot of heat ;)

 

The truth is that (as far as I know) there is no generally acceptable way of determining, in an objective, manner which approach is better. Indeed, which approach is better depends on a number of other factors: your treatment has to mesh with the rest of your bidding philosophy.

 

I am of the 1♣ opening school. Have I never opened 1♦ with 4=5? No: give me AKJx Jxxxx and a hand unsuited for a 1N rebid and I will open 1♦.

 

Do I never open 1N with a stiff? No. Give me Roland's hand and I would probably choose 1N as the least of several evils.

 

Have I ever played in an awful 5-1 ♣ fit after opening an rebidding a mediocre 5 card suit? Yes: and I did not enjoy it. But I have declared many contracts I wish I could have avoided. All methods involve compromise and all methods expose the user to the chance of reaching a hideous spot. Anyone who claims otherwise is fooling themselves. The longer you play, the more unfortunate spots you will reach.

 

As an example, I frequently open chunky 5 card major weak twos at favourable. As a result I have sometimes 'enjoyed' a 5-0 fit: and learned that I preempted my opps out of their 4-4 game contract. Oooops.

 

But that has not stopped me and will not stop me from making these bids because, on balance, I view such bids as winners.

 

In a similar vein, I will sometimes reach Justin's dreaded 5-1 or 5-0 ♣ partial, because that price is worth, to me, the benefits I perceive as flowing from my treatment on other hands.

 

Justin and others disagree, based on their subjective experience and the biases that we all bring to our perceptions of methods. All this makes for interesting and sometimes amusing discussion, but such discussion cannot, by the nature of the topic, provide a definitive answer to 'which is best'.

 

I 'know' that for me, my methods work well, and I am comfortable with them. That belief and level of comfort are worth a great deal, so absent a strong motivation, I doubt that I will change them.

 

If I do, it will be in the direction of rebiidng 1N with 5431 hands, after opening 1♣. For now, the perceived level of cost to my 1N rebid sequences outweighs the gain: for instance I routinely pull 1N to a 5 card major after 1♣ 1♠ 1N, if my hand lacks entries to the ♠ suit (and has other indicators of suit play being superior). I would have to stop that if partner could hold a stiff.

 

Wild horses could not persuade me to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with any but the most obvious hands, because my partnership philosophy is built on accurate distributional bidding.

[inquiry]

Btw, I think the issue about rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit is IMO much more dependant on the rest of your style. I only like it if we usually raise partner's major with 3 cards (in which case he will not usually rebid a 5-card suit after hearing my 1NT rebid).

Doesn't just everyone raise with three card support? ;) I prefer the raise (well not with 4333 and weak, but I tend not to open 4333 and weak... well... i do, but not as frequent as others, almost never with 11's, about half the 12's and all the 13+).

 

Had one last night with Hannie.... were we "missed" a 4-4 spade fit to play in a 4-3 heart fit. Of course, good things happened or I would not be mentioning it.. :-)

 

Jxxx

AQJx

AKx

T9

 

 

KT9x

Kxx

Jx

KQJx

 

S  N

1C 1H

2H 2N

3N 4H

Pass

 

Ok, a couple of issues. I was asked the following questions...

 

1) Why didn't I pass 3NT. The answer is two fold. If partner is forgetful, 3NT would include a doubleton spade or doubleton diamond. I don't want to be in 3NT opposite xx of spades. Second, the way I play over 2NT, opener rebids his suit with any random 11-13 balanced with three card support. Since I don't open most 11's, this comes down to 12-13. Presumably as responder I know what to do. If opener has 1345 or 4315 he will bid 3NT (short diamond) or 3♠ (short spade). The idea behind this is to find the clever moysein when it exist, to avoid bad 3NT's with stiff opposite weakness, So in theory, but not in practice (this is hte first time this auction has come up with hannie) he should be 3-3-1-6 or 4-3-1-5.

 

2) Another question was why didn't I rebid 2♠ instead of 2NT? This would seem normal, but my spade suit was Jxxx and my heart suit was AQJx and partner had raised hearts. The second answer was if partner showed a singleton SPADE, I might actually have visions of more than game. I can make slam oppisite as little as x Kxx xxxx AKQxx. The only way to find out about the short spade is to bid 2NT. When partner bids 3♠, now I can bid 4♦ as slam try. With the shown hand partner would in theory take control.

 

3) Over 3♣ rebid (no short suit, three card support), I would press on to game. Both 3NT and 4♠ are locks to make. 4♥ could have been beaten on a ♠ ruff (there is a singleton ♠ lurking). It is doubtful we could have gotten into 4♠ after my decision to hunt for the singleton ♠. IF I had bid 2♠, the auction would have gone to 4♠ without any difficulty.

[han]

Another funny thing about this hand was that somewhere during the hand (only one round of trumps had been played) west cashed the ace of spades and east dropped his stiff queen. East later admitted that he thought partner could not have a stiff spade because (1) Ben would have bid spades with 4, and (2) partner would have lead a spade. At that point a ruff would only have saved them from an overtrick.

 

Next time I will bid 3C Ben, and we'd get to the superior 3NT contract.

[HeartA]

I won't criticize anyone opening 1NT on that hand TOO much as it is not ridiculous, however it is not in my book. You call opening 1♦ then bidding 2♣ a genuine misdescription. I'm sure Roland is more than capable of pointing out what terrible things can happen with my misdescription.

 

But guess what: Opening 1NT is also a genuine misdescription. On this hand you are condemned to misdescribe your hand in some way. You choose 1NT, I don't.

 

There is one independent advantage to opening 1♦ though. Since you haven't misdescribed on your FIRST bid, something good might happen before you have to misdescribe on your second bid. If you open 1NT you have misdescribed already.

I second. There is no perfect way to open such a hand, and I would open 1♦ as well.

 

How to open a 4♦-5♣hand, it depends on many thing: the qualities of the suits, the strength of the hand, the distribution of majors, and how the points are distributed. If ♣s are very good, I would open 1♣ and prepare to rebid 2♣ unless pd responds 1♦ (or 2♣ etc.). And to raise pd's major with good 3 support, or rebid 1NT (if strength is within the range, 15 is on border for 15-17 NT opening).

 

There are some other types of hands you just can't open and rebid properly without "distort" them.

[jdeegan]

:rolleyes: Another issue I have not seen discussed in this forum is auctions after partner makes a negative double. Since, by definition, you don't have the other major (except for the rather rare 0-4-4-5 or 4-0-4-5 hands), opening the hand 1♦ leaves you better placed.

 

For most players, the negative double shows the other major (4 cards) and either the other minor or tolerance for opener's minor. If you open 1♣ and it goes: 1♠ - dbl - pass - ???, you may be in an awkward position with no spade stopper. Bidding the four card diamond suit is liable to force partner to correct to THREE clubs, and this may be too high. Starting with one diamond leaves you able to stop at either 2♦ or 2♣ and know what you are doing.

 

The same arguement holds for opening 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors.

 

Examples showing the 1♣ - 1♥ - dbl - pass - ??? auction are similar.

[the hog]

Asusme that the auction started 1♣ - 1♥

I'd hate to play a system that forced a 2♣ rebid holding a hand like

 

♠ AK3

♥ 6

♦ KQT9

♣ 65432

I would hate it too, and it won't happen. But I will not open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♥. I open 1♣, and my rebid will be 1♠.

 

Roland

Doesnt this lead to many 3-3 fits? The 1S rebid is a far greater distortion than opening 1D and rebidding 2C.

 

I don't mind opening 1NT with a stiff honour if in the NT range, else 1D followed by 2C seems clear if not strong enough to reverse; certainly this is far better than opening 1C and rebidding 2C on a moth eaten suit as some suggest. After all PC has been playing this style for yonks without any ill effects.

[Gerben42]

I dealt sample hands using Roland's opening hand. These were the first 10 hands (no selection!) that came up. We have part scores, games and a slam. Some of the discussed situations came up. Have a look how your favorite opening bid works out!

 

         S: QJ
         H: Q9653
         D: AQ4
         C: KT6
S: T8742          S: A9653
H: T74            H: 82
D: JT2            D: 986
C: A8             C: J93
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

         S: 9854
         H: Q4
         D: T9642
         C: K8
S: 73             S: AQJT62
H: T632           H: 9875
D: AQJ8           D: ---
C: A93            C: JT6
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

 

         S: Q84
         H: QT54
         D: Q4
         C: AKJ3
S: AJ95           S: T7632
H: 9862           H: 73
D: AJT            D: 9862
C: 96             C: T8
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

 

         S: 9642
         H: QT9542
         D: 8
         C: K6
S: AJT3           S: Q875
H: 8763           H: ---
D: QJ             D: AT9642
C: 983            C: AJT
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

         S: QJ863
         H: Q72
         D: QT9
         C: K3
S: 97542          S: AT
H: 83             H: T9654
D: 64             D: AJ82
C: T986           C: AJ
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

 

         S: AJ72
         H: T764
         D: AQ9
         C: 86
S: Q864           S: T953
H: Q9             H: 8532
D: JT86           D: 42
C: K93            C: AJT
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

 

         S: AJ874
         H: Q6
         D: A9
         C: T983
S: Q93            S: T652
H: T932           H: 8754
D: QJT6           D: 842
C: A6             C: KJ
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

         S: AT94
         H: QT43
         D: JT8
         C: AJ
S: J62            S: Q8753
H: 862            H: 975
D: Q62            D: A94
C: KT96           C: 83
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

         S: AT32
         H: 4
         D: AJT84
         C: AJ9
S: J84            S: Q9765
H: Q762           H: T9853
D: Q2             D: 96
C: KT83           C: 6
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

 

         S: T74
         H: T7
         D: AQT964
         C: J6
S: QJ86532        S: A9
H: 654            H: Q9832
D: J              D: 82
C: K8             C: AT93
         S: K
         H: AKJ
         D: K753
         C: Q7542

[flytoox]

Rebidding 5 card minors with any hand imo is awful. I have never had a hand where I have rebid a 5 card minor (although it is theoretically possible). It leads to numerous problems such as:

 

playing 5-1 or 5-0 fits. This is not usually desirable.

Causing partner to misevaluate. He will expect a 6 card suit so a holding like Kx may excite him a LOT (6 tricks he's thinking) only for him to be disappointed.

Missing 4-4 heart fits if your shape is something like 1435 and partner is something like 5422 (less than invite) he will gladly pass you in 2C.

Causing partner to judge wrongly in a competitive auction since he will expect a 6 card suit.

 

I don't see rebidding a 5 card suit as a lesser evil. Oh and to preempt the silly hand construction, yes with K xxx xxxx AKQJT I would open 1C and rebid 2C.

I am with Justion on this issue. I never rebid five card suit. Besides the possibility of playing awful 5-1 fit, there is another possibility, i.e., pd often has to raise with doubleton and some invitatioal strength. In this case, you will play 3m with 5-2 fit.