How to bid with 4D & 5C?

[ABadPlayer]

I'm just curious how most people decide to bid when holding 5♣ & 4♦ when the hand is not strong enough for a reverse.

 

Do you open 1D and plan to rebid 2C?

Do you open 1C and plan to rebid 2C?

Does it make a difference if you have a minimun or maximum hand?

Do you take suit quality into consideration when making your decision?

Do you occasionally rebid NT or make some other call with certain types of hands?

Does it matter if you are playing SAYC or 2/1?

Do scoring and vulnerability matter?

Are there other conventions/treatments that may effect the partnership agreement?

Will you open NT if the hand falls within your NT range?

Is there any other relevant information that I forgot to inquire about? :blink:

 

 

~Hunter

[helene_t]

I prefer to rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit unless the clubs are really good.

 

I occasionally open 1NT with a singleton.

 

2245 is always ballanced unless strong enough to reverse.

[Finch]

This is a well-known fertile source of disagreement with most people thinking their way is the only way. But, as you asked:

 

I open 1C with 4-5 in the minors.

I open or rebid 1NT with a 2245 that isn't strong enough to reverse.

If partner bids my 3-card major I raise.

If partner bids my singleton major, I rebid 2C the majority of the time (something like K KQx AJxx Jxxxx would rebid 1NT however).

I never open 1NT with a singleton (unless it's an out and out psyche).

 

I think it's more important that you and your partner are aligned on this, because it has quite an impact on the rest of your system. If the auction starts 1D - 1M - 2C, partner needs to know whether it's a good idea to give preference to diamonds with 2-3 in the minors. If partner has a good hand and is interested in a 5-3 minor suit fit, partner has to know how to find out your relative minor suit lengths.

[Free]

Do you open 1D and plan to rebid 2C?

Do you open 1C and plan to rebid 2C?

Do you take suit quality into consideration when making your decision?

Depends on the suit quality for me. If you have decent ♣s you can just open 1♣ and rebid them, but if you have something like AKxx-Jxxxx I rather open 1♦. You can also support partner's Major on a 3 card with 5431, or bid 1♠ on a 3-card.

 

Do you occasionally rebid NT or make some other call with certain types of hands?

Only with 5422's

 

Does it matter if you are playing SAYC or 2/1?

Do scoring and vulnerability matter?

No

 

Are there other conventions/treatments that may effect the partnership agreement?

Not immediatly.

 

Will you open NT if the hand falls within your NT range?

Maybe with 2-2-4-5, depends on the hand...

[coyot]

I open 1♣ and rebid 2♣ if the club suit is any good. If diamonds are good and clubs crappy, I might open diamonds and rebid clubs.

 

I NEVER open/rebid 1NT with singleton in partner's suit. This seems to cause a lot of problems, the hand lacks communication and I run the risk of partner deciding to bid game on misfit. (or even 6fit)

[Gerben42]

Agree with Frances' statement that many think there is only one way, however we have a different style here I guess.

 

2245: 1♣ rebid 1NT

Partner bids my 3-card major: Raise

Partner bids my singleton: If my ♣ suit is good: open 1♣ rebid 2♣. If my ♣ suit is bad open 1♦ rebid 2♣.

I never open or rebid 1NT with a singleton.

[Walddk]

I never open or rebid 1NT with a singleton.

What a shame. Playing a 15-17 1NT I think 1NT is the only sensible option with

 

K

AKJ

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

So you bid clubs and clubs or diamonds and clubs to show 2 suits with at least 9 cards? Well, fine, you have 5 of your 16 hcp there, a genuine misdescription of the hand if you ask me.

 

In my opinion it's much better to pretend that you have one spade more and one club less and open 1NT.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

Roland, 1NT is certainly an option (I would open 1NT), but to claim it's the only correct option borders on indoctrination.

[Gerben42]

I won't criticize anyone opening 1NT on that hand TOO much as it is not ridiculous, however it is not in my book. You call opening 1♦ then bidding 2♣ a genuine misdescription. I'm sure Roland is more than capable of pointing out what terrible things can happen with my misdescription.

 

But guess what: Opening 1NT is also a genuine misdescription. On this hand you are condemned to misdescribe your hand in some way. You choose 1NT, I don't.

 

There is one independent advantage to opening 1♦ though. Since you haven't misdescribed on your FIRST bid, something good might happen before you have to misdescribe on your second bid. If you open 1NT you have misdescribed already.

[pbleighton]

"Roland, 1NT is certainly an option (I would open 1NT), but to claim it's the only correct option borders on indoctrination."

 

Indoctrination?

 

I just had a thought - are Roland, Ben, Richard, and Ron really just one bridge evangelist with a brutally split personality? :blink:

 

Peter

[Walddk]

I won't criticize anyone opening 1NT on that hand TOO much as it is not ridiculous, however it is not in my book. You call opening 1♦ then bidding 2♣ a genuine misdescription. I'm sure Roland is more than capable of pointing out what terrible things can happen with my misdescription.

 

But guess what: Opening 1NT is also a genuine misdescription. On this hand you are condemned to misdescribe your hand in some way. You choose 1NT, I don't.

 

There is one independent advantage to opening 1♦ though. Since you haven't misdescribed on your FIRST bid, something good might happen before you have to misdescribe on your second bid. If you open 1NT you have misdescribed already.

A few months ago playing on BBO, Fred Gitelman had this hand:

 

K

AKJ

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

Correct, the same as I posted earlier. Fred opened 1NT. Afterwards he said:

 

"Nothing is ideal with this hand, but I think 1NT is the most sensible choice". I obviously agree as you saw before, and I went one step further when I added that 1NT is the only sensible option in my opinion.

 

I am not sure what whereagles wants me to say when I think that it is. Everyone's entitled to his/her opinion; I hope that applies to me too. A spade is a spade, and a notrump is a notrump. Introctrination? Not at all. I just voice my opinion. Isn't that what this forum is for?

 

Roland

[Jurek S]

In 15-17 range 1♣ or 1NT.

With 11-14 quite often 1♦ but always consider rebid (even before suit quality)

so with 2245 and equal suits I open 1♣ if 1NT rebid is claer after ♥/♠.

This approch pays in part-score boards but loses haevly in ♣/♦ games and slams.

[inquiry]

K

AKJ

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

Correct, the same as I posted earlier. Fred opened 1NT. Afterwards he said:

 

"Nothing is ideal with this hand, but I think 1NT is the most sensible choice". I obviously agree as you saw before, and I went one step further when I added that 1NT is the only sensible option in my opinion.

I open this hand 1NT, no question about it, playing 2/1 GF or SAYC with no special agreements, because I think it is the right bid. Playing with someone who uses my specialized version of 2/1, I pretty much have no choice but to open 1NT.

 

Why?

 

If I open 1♣, we play WALSH style so if we have 1 ♦ fit we will not find it if partner is weakish with 4+ Major, as I am not strong enough to "reverse". If I open 1♦ and partner bids 1NT or 1♠ I have no userful rebid. Oddly enougn 2♣ by me does not promise ♣ and 3♣ shows a minor two suiter and WEAK, and 1NT shows a much weaker hand. So, the only option I have is to open 1♣ then rebid 2♣ (or pass 1NT). So, I prefer to open 1NT.

 

What thing for sure, Richard, Ron, Wald and me may each have our own soap box, but they are full with quite different detergents... .At least here, on opening choice Wald and I see very much eye-to-eye.

[Gerben42]

I just voice my opinion. Isn't that what this forum is for?

 

Exactly! This like many other situations are things that have been under discussion for ages and we're not going to find a conclusive answer here.

 

If this hand would be played in a World Pairs Final or similar you would get natural 1♣, 1♦ and 1NT opening bids (and some artificial stuff but I'll ignore that) and it'd depend on the rest of the hand who would be getting the good scores. But that's what it makes it interesting :)

[hrothgar]

The easiest thing to say is "it depends"

 

For me, there are two important issues that need to be considered:

 

1. The character of the hand: Do I have lots of Aces and Kings which suggest a suit contract? Alternatively, do I have lots of slow tricks that would make me prefer a NT contract?

 

2. The strength of the hand: Its crucial to understand whether my expected rebid (rasing a major or rebidding 1NT will seriously distort the strength of my hand) Most NT ranges are 3 HCP in width (15-17, 12-14) or some such. The "trickiest" hands are often the ones that sit right in the center of the distribution...

 

In general

 

If I think that the hand is best suited for suit play, I will lie about the relative length of my suits: For example, holding a 3=1=4=5 hand, I will open 1♦ and rebid 2♣

 

If I think that the hand is best suited for NT, I will distort shape and either open NT or rebid in NT

[Echognome]

Put me down under the artificial camp (and hence my refraining thus far). In mine it's a systematic 1♣ opening showing an opening bid in either minor. Since responder transfers in response he gets two bids before I have to worry and thus i'll be in better shape to know what to do after I hear what he has to say. The only hand that I would bid otherwise is a 2245 and 3145 or 1345 with a singleton honour in the NT range (11-13 NV, 14-16 V) which would be opened 1NT. There are some negative inferences for our transfers as we play both super-accepts and super-rejects!

[han]

That sounds Super Matt!

 

 

Until about a year ago I almost always opened 1D holding 4-5 in the minors, now I never do. I'm a happier person now. Opening 1NT on the hand posted by Roland seems the only sensible choice to me.

 

I don't buy Gerben's arguement that he hasn't misdescribed his hand yet when he opens 1D. Diamonds is not your best suit.

[Walddk]

You call opening 1♦ then bidding 2♣ a genuine misdescription. I'm sure Roland is more than capable of pointing out what terrible things can happen with my misdescription.

 

.

I certainly do call it a misdescription if you start by opening that hand 1♦, or 1♣ for that matter.

 

1. 1♦ followed by 2♣ over a 1♠ response is definitely a misdescription. You don't have 5-4 as promised. You have 4-5 and want partner to work that out.

 

2. 1♣ followed by 2♣ over a 1♠ response is also a misdescription, because

 

K

AKJ

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

is neither 5 diamonds and 4 clubs (1♦ followed by 2♣), nor a one-suited hand with clubs (2♣ rebid if you open 1♣). The latter is worse with 2 of your 16 hcp in a 5-card suit. The first isn't much better with the wrong shape and 5 hcp among 16 in the two suits.

 

Let me add another interesting aspect. By opening 1 of a minor you show something in the region of 10-21 hcp with at least 3 cards in the suit opened. Why is it that I prefer to open 1NT to show 15-17 hcp, in principle balanced, rather than the wide-ranged 1 of a minor?

 

Because it makes it so much easier for my partner after just one bid by opener. Don't we all want to open 1NT as often as possible? That is exactly why I think that 1NT is the only sensible option with that hand.

 

Roland

[Echognome]

I don't have a problem with opening Roland's hand with 1NT. As I mentioned I would open it 1NT in my system if it were within range. However, you have to choose some opening with:

 

K

AJx

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

That is the same hand without the ♥K. Then are you opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ over 1♠? Starting with a pass?

[Walddk]

I don't have a problem with opening Roland's hand with 1NT.  As I mentioned I would open it 1NT in my system if it were within range.  However, you have to choose some opening with:

 

K

AJx

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

That is the same hand without the ♥K.  Then are you opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ over 1♠?  Starting with a pass?

I don't have a problem with rebidding 1NT after 1♣ - 1♠, Matt. If I am outside my range, I am perfectly happy to rebid 1NT with a singleton honour - not just any singleton. I even know of people (Richie Reisig is one of those) who gladly rebid 1NT with a small singleton.

 

Now I am dealt a king even. No qualms at my end.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

I don't have a problem with opening Roland's hand with 1NT. As I mentioned I would open it 1NT in my system if it were within range. However, you have to choose some opening with:

 

K

AJx

Kxxx

Qxxxx

 

That is the same hand without the ♥K. Then are you opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ over 1♠? Starting with a pass?

I would open 1♣ and rebid 1NT, what's the problem?

[Finch]

Obviously if you are playing some sort of artificial method you may have a solution. My team-mates play transfer responses to 1C, including the approach that completing the transfer shows 4 cards in a missed out suit, so

 

1C - 1D (hearts)

1H

 

shows 4 diamonds (and by inference 5 clubs)

 

and

 

1C - 1H (spades)

1S

 

shows 4 diamonds or 4 hearts (and by inference 5 clubs).

 

However, we're talking about playing some sort of standard methods. In particular we're talking about the problem on (13)45 hands (and 0445s, but I bet you don't open them 1NT).

 

Deciding that 1NT is the least lie is one thing, and I don't agree, but I understand and sympathise. Saying "it's the only sensible option" is absurdly dogmatic, and seems to ignore the possible downsides. And there are significant downsides with off-shape 1NT openings, particularly so in competitive auctions. Oddly enough, opening 1C on these hands has most of its problems in non-competitive auctions. Hmm, which are more common?

[Walddk]

Oddly enough, opening 1C on these hands has most of its problems in non-competitive auctions. Hmm, which are more common?

Non-competitive auctions when you hold a 16 count obviously! So without intent you just made a perfect point: opening 1♣ with that hand is likely to get you into trouble.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

If I think that the hand is best suited for suit play, I will lie about the relative length of my suits:  For example, holding a 3=1=4=5 hand, I will open 1♦ and rebid 2♣

 

I find this odd :)

 

Let me see: if I think that our partnership's goals probably lie in a suit contract, I will intentionally mislead partner about my distribution.

 

I would have thought that the best way to reach the correct suit contract is to involve partner in an accurate exchange of information.

 

If we have a minor game or slam, we can usually find our ♦ fit after opening 1♣, and we will do so in a manner in which partner (whose opinion counts) will know that we have longer ♣ than ♦. However, should we open 1♦, we will never be able to clarify the respective suit lengths. Even when partner knows we like to distort our shape, he has to cater to the posibility that we were dealt 5=4 or 5=5 rather than 4=5.

[whereagles]

hrothgar, what's wrong with opening a 4D-5C with 1C and rebidding 2C if the hand isn't strong enough to reverse?