OPENING NT with 5 card majors

[Double !]

Another unsolicited opinion from the Peanut Gallery. (Are those of you from the states all too young to remember the Peanut Gallery?)

 

I preface this by stating that, while I enjoy learning and even playing a lot of conventions that I feel are needed, I am not a system freak. I just don't really like strong NT systems for other reasons although I do find that bidding most hands can be easier (for me) when playing them. However:

 

I often open 1NT with 15-17 and 5H playing some form of 2/1, and with either major and 15-17 balanced when not playing 1M-1NT forcing (such as some form of SAYC) because of the theoretical rebid problems and that's what my (often pick-up) partners prefer. However, I would prefer to open the major. While my hand is balanced, who is to say that my P's hand doesn't have trump support, a ruffing value or two, and not enough to move over 1NT. This can be very important at matchpoints and could result in missing some super-fit games at imps, too.

More importantly, IMO, is the potential of losing the major fit completely should the opps interfere/ compete after the 1NT opening (unless we have some lengthy agreements.)

 

At least two alternative options have been discussed in the forum relatively recently. One, designed more for when not playing 1M- 1NT forcing is 2C Riton. The follow-up are nice, but the author sugggested that playing opening 2M to show 5M-4C is an advisable accommodation. The second alternative is to play some form of Gazzilli where all strong hands (in Ambra, this is defined as being 17+) are shown by rebidding 2C first after 1H-1S & 1M-1NT. It also suggests some off-shape 1NT rebids with minimum hands and 5H & 4+C/D. [see Ambra: go to Dan-Neill's site, "Daniel's System Page"). In addition, Chamaco presented a nice description of one set of follow-up bids playing Gazzilli. It should be noted that the idea of playing 1X-1Y-2C is not unprecidented. Kaplan-Sheinwold played 1D-1Y-2C as forcing and showing extra values way back when. And, playing Gazzilli doesn't appear to require any significant changes to one's preference in opening 2-bids. It mostly seems to need two people to buy into the approach, and I suspect that the range could be effectively lowered to handle 15+ (as opposed to 17+).

 

So, the one thing I haven't seen here is any feedback in terms of people's experiences with either of these alternative's (except, perhaps, with Ben's utilization of 2C Riton). It doesn't appear to require much memory work (especially if I am able to remember most of it). If these are effective alternatives, then the issues of whether or not to open 1NT with 15-17 bal. & a 5-card major might become less of an issue.

 

So, has anyone had any experiences with these alternatives that they would be willing to share? I suspect that these alternatives could prove to be quite effective once a partnership becomes used to them and works out the meanings of some rebids should the opps interfere. However, as we all know, institutions tend to be very resistant to change.

 

TYIA Enjoy the day, and please help the victims of Katrina!!!!!!!!

 

DHL

[Al_U_Card]

One exception was 10-12 NT range.  Opening 1 of a major was almost always superior with any 5-3-3-2 hand.

what do you base your opinion on just out of curiosity?

About 10 yrs use of the 10-12 NT range. 1 of a major then promised 13+ hcp which tended to be nice but of marginal value.

 

Initially, I always opened 1NT with a 5 card major. After numerous poor results like 1NT down 2 for -200 when at the other tables (matchpoints) the 8 card major fit was found after 1M-2M and made or was down 1.

 

I can't say statistically, but the psychological effect was significant ;)

[mikeh]

for me, when playing 10-12, the test was that I would open 1N if the alternative was pass, but would open 1M if I would have done so in a strong nt method

[han]

for me, when playing 10-12, the test was that I would open 1N if the alternative was pass, but would open 1M if I would have done so in a strong nt method

Same for me.

[awm]

Elianna and I have been playing Gazilli for a while now, basically the version that's in the Ambra writeup. Some of my observations:

 

(1) Opener's 2NT rebid (showing 6M+4-card side suit and extra values) seems to come up fairly often. In principle it's quite useful (a lot of information conveyed at a reasonable level of bidding) but in practice I have made a lot of wrong decisions over this call. Perhaps I just need more experience with it.

 

(2) The 1NT vs. 1M problem isn't completely solved by this. In particular, opening 1M on sixteen or so means I will have to either show my major and clubs (rebid 2♣ and then 2M) which is basically what I could've done playing 2/1 anyway, or I'll have to fudge a point and pretend to have 17+. Admittedly I've opened 1M with 16 hcp more since playing gazilli than I did before, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the problem is "completely solved."

 

(3) The biggest wins are the limited 2-level rebids, especially 1♠-1NT-2♥, where I'm often saved from making "courtesy raises" along with the direct rebids at the three-level showing real two suiters. Another problem nicely solved is what to do with game-forcing one-suiters (start with 2♣ and then bid 3M).

 

Our methods have gradually evolved from something like Hardy-style 2/1 "backwards" to the point that we basically play standard american plus gazilli and 1M-2NT showing limit plus. Obviously some will disagree, but we find the changes to be improvements. ;)

[Al_U_Card]

for me, when playing 10-12, the test was that I would open 1N if the alternative was pass, but would open 1M if I would have done so in a strong nt method

Same for me.

Please tell me what methods over 1NT you used.

 

I used a 2C relay to 2D that introduced all invitational or better hands (or a weak hand with D). Over the 2D puppet, 2H/S were inv while 2NT was GF stayman.

 

2D showed the majors and less than invitational

 

2H/2S natural to play

 

2NT the minors and 3 of a suit pre-empt

 

btw 1D! (2+ and 13-15 if balanced, no 5cM)

1C! (2+ and 16-18 if balanced, no 5cM)

[reisig]

My opinion is open 1NT with 5M when the M is poorish (most stuff outside the suit) and open 1M when 6+ points in the suit...hence less protection in the other suits. But opening 1NT with 5 (not AKQxx or AKJxx) can be fine IF you have a way for responder with a GF hand to find out. I like 2♣ (Stayman) followed by 3♣ asks for a five card suit...or is natural w ♣. Opener bids - 3♦ to say the last suit I bid has 5 either the Major or even ♦s when no Major. The other steps (not 3♦) relate to my ♣ support.

[1eyedjack]

My opinion don't mean squat, but I open 1N all the time with 5M332. Mind you, that is in a weak 1N opening scenario in which (1) there is more pressure on the FNT continuations assuming that you are playing them and (2) preemptive effect of the 1N opener takes a higher priority than with strong 1N.

 

I used to deny 5 card major when opening 1N with regular partner, then started "psyching" 1N with a 5 card major (mainly because the weak 1N opener appeared to be so effective, so wanted to increase its frequency until it became marginally ineffective :-)). But it became regular enough that ethically had to formalise it. Heh, trouble with that is that I have started to psych 1N with a 6 card major. Turns out to be a bundle of laughs when you then deny a 4 card major in response to Stayman (after all, partner is not going to have 4 card support for your 6 carder is he?).

 

More seriously: if you are in the game zone the 5-3 fit should come to light if it is important. You should have the mechanism for that given the space available. If you are arguing about the partscore at the 2 level, missing the 5-3 fit is not that great a loss: Oppo miss their fit also, and even if 2M plays better your way than 1N your way, that is perhaps not the correct comparison, which should be whatever you can buy your way against the oppo's contract. A complex problem at Matchpoints, but less so at IMP.

 

The big losses come in 2 scenarios:

1) when you can comfortably make 3M at MP but no sight of game so the major suit is not investigated, and as the hand belongs to you the oppo fit is irrelevant. You are probably making 1N also, but the score is inadequate.

2) when responder has a distributional hand with 4 card support for your 5 card major, and just enough for game in the major but no interest in game normally (normally being lacking 5 card support) ... so you get passed out in 1N.

 

Both of those events are mercifully rare, and in each case the opps may rescue you.

[luke warm]

I never play puppet, because it is unplayable when responder is 5=4 in the majors, and cumbersome when 4=5 (you have to transfer to ♥ and then bid 3♠

i guess it depends on your system... in the framework of a weak nt, i play

 

1nt : 2c (puppet)

2d : 3c as 5/4 in the majors and 3d as 4/5...

 

it's always invitational strength since gf hands go thru 2d

[mr1303]

My rule is I open 1M if I have a small doubleton somewhere, otherwise I open 1NT. Works for me.

[POJC]

I don't mind biding NT with five card majors. With weak double sometimes open 1M. A good 17 gets upgraded to 18.

Mostly i don't need the puppet stayman, reg. stayman works out ok.

All those fancy bids are great, but well mostly u don't really need them...

 

To show 5-4 invitational hand as responder i use:

Transfer then 2S when 5H+4S.

2C, then 2S after 2D(neg) to show 5S+4H. (when i have GF i transfer to spades and rebid Hs)

 

The advantage is that it's easy and logical to remember. All rebids by responder are natural including minors.

[mikestar]

The most critical issue is the ablility of your NT structure to find 5-3 fits in opener's major when responder is unbalanced.

 

You won't miss 5-4 fits except perhaps with 5-3-3-2 opposite 4-3-3-3 if responder chooses not to use Stayman, and it's not clear that missing this particular fit isn't a good thing. Similarly, missing the 5-3 fit opposite 4-3-3-3 or 5-3-3-2 may well be a gain and is unlikely to be a big loss. Missing the 5-3 fit opposite 4-4-3-2 is a loser, but a tolerable tradeoff--NT could still be right.

 

But if you have say x Kxx Kxxxx QJxxx where with 5 hearts in opener's hand 4♥ may well be on ice when even 1NT goes down if opener has weak spades, you must be able to find that fit.

[luke warm]

But if you have say x Kxx Kxxxx QJxxx where with 5 hearts in opener's hand 4♥ may well be on ice when even 1NT goes down if opener has weak spades, you must be able to find that fit.

the solution is to play puppet, i really don't understand why more people don't... must be some theoretical nuance i'm missing

[1eyedjack]

The most critical issue is the ablility of your NT structure to find 5-3 fits in opener's major when responder is unbalanced.

I would agree that it is an issue. It is certainly not the only issue. Whether or not it is the most critical one is a matter of opinion. I believe otherwise.

[GaryFisch]

But if you have say x Kxx Kxxxx QJxxx where with 5 hearts in opener's hand 4♥ may well be on ice when even 1NT goes down if opener has weak spades, you must be able to find that fit.

Right, and that's a good argument for opening all decent 5 card majors even with 5-3-3-2 and 1NT point count. It seems to me that you have to play this way using 4-suit transfers. Suppose the bidding goes 1NT-3♣-3♦-4[_CL (game-forcing)? Responder might have a 5530 or 5431, but you don't want to be introducing a new suit at the 4-level. Responder will not know your strength (max/min) or what you may have in the minors. A perfectly good sequence, if responder does have that strength and shape, is 1♥-2♦-2NT-3♣-4♣-4♥. Then opener may cue-bid, use Blackwood, or bid 5♥ to ask for quality of trumps.

 

OTOH, I would always open 2NT or (even more so) 2♣-then-2NT with the right point count and a balanced hand. It's essential to show that strength and shape early so partner doesn't pass with a sure game.