OPENING NT with 5 card majors

[sceptic]

I am not happy with when I open 1NT with 5 card majors on occasions, I wish I had opened the suit

 

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

 

Do you have preferences how you handle NT with 5 card majors

 

What conventions do you like or prefer to play knowing there can be 5 card majors in openers hand

 

Do you think you should not open NT with a 5 card major

 

 

I am not happy with when I open 2NT hands with 5 card majors on occasions, as my reponse structure does not seem to be anygood, I have no idea about puppet stayman or anything else available in this position.

 

 

Do you think puppet stayman is a good convention or are there other ones available that you regard as effective

[the hog]

There is no right or wrong answer to this, and you have just re-ignited a heated debate.

 

Suffice to say that in all my partnerships if the hand shape is balanced and the point count is right, we ALWAYS open 1NT regardless of whether we have a 5 card M of any quality or not. Others will disagree. This fits into our system, works well and removes many rebid problems. Over time I have found the advantages to be huge and the disadvantages slight. I can see a growing trend to treating balanced hands as balanced hands. Some players who post here would rather emasculate themselves than open 1NT with a 5 card M. Most of those whom I respect do not have this phobia.

 

We don't play puppet over 1NT but do so over a 2NT opening.

[Elianna]

As the Hog has said, we've been on this merry-go-round before, but as I like horses, I'll participate. :rolleyes:

 

Most of my experience is with 15-17 NT openings. I haven't played a lot of anything else, so I won't address other ranges (except this is all prolly translatable).

 

I will open all hands that are balanced (5332) with 16 points 1NT, and especially when my five card suit is hearts, and I have three spades. Why? It saves me rebid headaches, especially when pard bids 1s over 1h. With 15/17 points, or not 5332, I use more discretion.

 

For hands that don't fit in the above, I basically ask myself: If I had to describe the most relevant feature of my hand, what is it? Is it that I have a five card major? Is it that I'm balanced? A lot of my perception of this is based on factors like my exact distribution, where my high cards are, and I'm ashamed to admit: how will this affect my opponents and what my mood is. I have seen that there are some hands that I'll open 1NT, and others 1M based on how aggressive I'm feeling at that given moment, and that varies a lot by how we've been doing, how much the opps have pissed me off in the past, how little (or how much) I want partner to play the hand, etc.

 

For opening 2NT with a five-card major, I will do it when my major suit is relatively weaker (so here the consideration is only the suit, not where it fits in the range), one where 3NT is likely to make the same number of tricks as 4M opposite a pard with a fit for my major.

 

I don't like playing puppet stayman because I've already decided that my hand is better suited for NT, so why play puppet? I don't hate it though, so if that's something pard really wants to play over 2NT, I can live with it, but I won't like it. I like Smolen too much to be willing to give it up for puppet stayman.

[Wackojack]

This is from a fellow countryman who lives in Acol 12-14 no trump land. I have started playing 5-card majors 15-17 no trump with a few partners to try it out and have seen that the problem is how to handle 5332 distributions with a 5-card major. In order to avoid rebidding a 5-card suit and not distorting the system by having to rebid with 3-card minor suit, it seems to me that this is what you have to do:

 

Open 1NT with 15-17 5332 unless the major is good enough to treat as a 6-carder.

 

With 5332 and 12-14, open 1M and normally rebid in no trumps at the cheapest level. This means that 2/1 responses must be stronger than Acol, but not necessarily game forcing (say at least a good 10 count). Thus the 1NT response range is 6-10 if non forcing. (This is not a problem if balanced hands are only opened in a suit with 12-14 or 17+) Another question arises after say 1S-2D, and you are 5332 with a low doubleton club. Do you rebid 2NT or raise diamonds? Does a raise of the minor need 4-card support?

 

To those (unlike myself) who are familiar with 15-17NT 5-card majors, is this a fair description of the issues?

[helene_t]

With 16 points you are probably too strong for

1♥-1♠

2♥

so even if your 5-card is good enough to go as a 6-card, rebidding the opening suit is not allways an alternative. You could rebid 2♣ on a 3-card, especially if partner responds 1NT, but with a doubleton club you really have to open 1NT. On the other hand, with a doubleton in the other major it is less attractive to open 1NT because partner may transfer to the other major, leaving you in the 5-2 fit instead of the 5-3 fit.

 

So if you are reluctant to opening a strong 1NT with a 5-card major, one criteria is which suit is your doubleton. Playing a weak 1NT, suit quality becomes more important.

 

Personally, I don't have much problems opening 1NT with a 5-card major. I almost always do so unless partner insists otherwise.

[Gerben42]

I like to open 1NT with 5♥ systematically. With ♠ only if the hand feels like NT too much (terrible suit, lots of Ks and Qs in the side suits.

 

How to find out about 5♥ in opener's hand? Quite simple really: Respond 2NT to Stayman when you have 5♥. If you like you can have 2NT response as 5♥ minimum and 3♣ as 5♥ maximum.

 

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

 

After 2NT - 3♣ :

3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.

3♥ = no 4 or 5M

3♠ = 5♠

3NT = 5♥

 

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

[helene_t]

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

 

After 2NT - 3♣ :

3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.

3♥ = no 4 or 5M

3♠ = 5♠

3NT = 5♥

 

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

I suppose the advantage of this is that you have more space available after minor suit stayman? Or are there aother advantages?

 

Looks great, did you invent that yourself?

[Free]

We've had this discussion sooooo many times, and it's always the same conclusion: it's a matter of preference and agreements. If you want to open 1NT with a 5 card M, fine. If you don't want to, fine as well. Want to open NT with 5 ♥'s but not with 5 ♠'s (or the other way around), fine! If you want to play puppet stayman after 1NT, go ahead...

 

Anyway, in Belgium (and the Netherlands as well) most people use the 1NT opening to make a barrier between minimum and maximum balanced hands. So they include any 5 card M in their NT opening (many play strong NT btw). Lots of people use 3♣ as puppet stayman (GF), and 2♣ as regular or garbage stayman. It works just fine, but yes, sometimes you miss out on your Major fits - as usual with NT openings.

[Gerben42]

The big advantage is indeed that you have 2 more much-needed steps for the minor suits. This makes a lot of difference in my experience. There is no other advantage, really.

 

Actually I didn't think of it myself, my junior partner (smirny in BBO) did. Anyway, it seems that the Blue Team thought of it independently (I noticed on Vugraph that L / V play it).

[joker_gib]

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

 

After 2NT - 3♣ :

3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.

3♥ = no 4 or 5M

3♠ = 5♠

3NT = 5♥

 

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

I suppose the advantage of this is that you have more space available after minor suit stayman? Or are there aother advantages?

 

Looks great, did you invent that yourself?

I agree that it looks great ! What are the continuations on 3♥ (after 3♠ minor suit stayman) and 3NT (4♦=transfer, I suppose ....) ?

 

Alain

[inquiry]

Playing weak NT, I will not open 1NT with a five card major.

 

Playing strong NT, I "always" open BAL hands with a five card major 1NT.

 

As for what I like to "deal" with the possibility of a five card major, it is what I found from ETM Victory over 1NT from the www.bridgematters.com site. It is the best. Briefly,

 

1NT - 3D = puppet stayman. Game going hand, checking for five card major on way

 

I will also point out this sequence which deals with opener having five hearts.

1NT - 2D = jacoby transfer, with a twist. Responder doesn't need five hearts, in fact he doesn;t even need four. Here are opener's rebids to 2♦ taken direclty from the ETM site (see http://www.bridgematters.com/onent.htm)

 

2H: denies 4Hs, any strength

2S: 5Hs, minimum

2NT: 4Hs, minimum

3C: 5Hs, maximum

3H: 4Hs, maximum

 

When 2♦ doesn't have hearts, it is a game try, so not the maximum rebids showing hearts are above 2NT, but no problem. If opener bids 2♥ (not four hearts), responder can then bid 2♠ as a range check, again landing in 2NT if partner is minimum or in 3♣ otherwise if opener is maximum.

[Chamaco]

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

 

Usually, some guidelines that discriminate hands suit-oriented vs NT-oriented are:

 

- type of values:

many Aces and Kings usually are suit oriented; Q, J and good intermediates (T,9,8, etc) suggest good play in NT.

The reason is easy: in suit contract, innmany cases the J or 9 or 8 never takes tricks because such round is ruffed; in NT, you can develop slow tricks.

 

- good intermediates (see point above)

 

- tenaces:

usually many tenaces aregood for NT

 

- more than one suit unstopped:

I know many disagree (but many others also agree :D ), but one of the factors that might oush towards conisdering a hand as suit oriented is if you have 2+ suits unstopped (1 suit unstopped is ok for NT).

 

- rebid problems

If you decide to open 1 of a suit you must have in mind a rebid.

This does not have a universal solution, as it depends from your system and agreements.

 

---------------------------

 

As a whole, I think it's wise not to be "slave of the system": e.g. I think it's better to leave room for evaluation and not be forced to always bid 1NT or alway 1M with 5332.

Judgment is important ! :)

[Gerben42]

2N - 3♣ - 3♥ - ?

3♠: Asks 5-card minor (3NT none, then 4♣ asks 4-card minor)

3NT: To play

4m: Natural slam try with 4-card major on the side

 

2N - 3♣ - 3NT - ?

4♦ Transfer

4♣ Slam try for ♥

4♠ Kickback for ♥

4NT Quantitative

[Al_U_Card]

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

 

Usually, some guidelines that discriminate hands suit-oriented vs NT-oriented are:

 

- type of values:

many Aces and Kings usually are suit oriented; Q, J and good intermediates (T,9,8, etc) suggest good play in NT.

The reason is easy: in suit contract, innmany cases the J or 9 or 8 never takes tricks because such round is ruffed; in NT, you can develop slow tricks.

 

- good intermediates (see point above)

 

- tenaces:

usually many tenaces aregood for NT

 

- more than one suit unstopped:

I know many disagree (but many others also agree :D ), but one of the factors that might oush towards conisdering a hand as suit oriented is if you have 2+ suits unstopped (1 suit unstopped is ok for NT).

 

- rebid problems

If you decide to open 1 of a suit you must have in mind a rebid.

This does not have a universal solution, as it depends from your system and agreements.

 

---------------------------

 

As a whole, I think it's wise not to be "slave of the system": e.g. I think it's better to leave room for evaluation and not be forced to always bid 1NT or alway 1M with 5332.

Judgment is important ! :)

Hear, Hear. Better words were rarely spoke. Judgement is primary and since most good players have excellent systems for both 1NT and 1 of a major responses, the big gain comes from judicious choice.

[Al_U_Card]

One exception was 10-12 NT range. Opening 1 of a major was almost always superior with any 5-3-3-2 hand.

[Guest Jlall]

Whenever in range I open 1N with 5M (even playing 10-12) regardless of my hand if im 5332. I don't consider a good max in range. This approach has served me well.

 

BTW, I don't think it's debatable that if youre 5332 with 5M you would always open 2N if you had 20-21 (unless you upgraded) in a standard system. This is because you have no rebid after 1M-1N ? to show 20-21 unless you have some non standard fix. When you open 1M you can rebid 2 of a minor reasonably and be ok, thus its debatable.

[Fluffy]

I never open 1NT unless the 5cM is a 4cM (ie 10xxxx), I a quite happy rebidding a 3 card suit after partner's 1NT. This has worked very well for me. While the only time I opened 1NT with 5c majors was a dreadful experience finishing last on a european junior championship, althou I suspect this had little to do with that.

[mikeh]

I never play puppet, because it is unplayable when responder is 5=4 in the majors, and cumbersome when 4=5 (you have to transfer to ♥ and then bid 3♠: a sequence I like for other purposes.

 

But there is a fix:

 

3♣ is stayman: the responses:

 

3♦ no 4 card Major, no 5 card ♥ suit, may hold 5 ♠

 

Responder usually bids 3♦ to ask, over which opener bids 3♠ (with 5) or 3N

 

Responder can also bid 3♠, smolen with longer ♥, or 3N smolen with longer ♠

 

3♥ shows 4 ♥, may have 4♠. Responder bids 3♠ as a puppet to 3N without ♠, or 3N with ♠ and no slam interest, or 4N with ♠ and invitational values

 

3♠ shows 4♠, denies 4♥

 

3N shows 5♥

 

This preserves smolen, which is a great gadget, while allowing you to find all 5-3 fits.

[Guest Jlall]

Another, less complicated fix is to just reverse 3H and 3N. So 3N=5 hearts, 3H=no 4 or 5M, 3D remains the same. There are a lot of ways to do it, they're all basically the same.

[Elianna]

Responder usually bids 3♦ to ask, over which opener bids 3♠ (with 5) or 3N

Hmm, I hope that you mean that responder bids 3♥ to ask, or else there's a problem here. :D

[mikeh]

I should never type before my morning coffee: all those suit symbols look the same :D

[Finch]

Opening 2NT with a balanced hand and a five-card major is nowadays pretty must obligitory, because otherwise you have no rebid if you open 1 of the major, and you overstate the nature of the hand if you open 2C and rebid in the major.

 

There are many complicated systems over 2NT to reach your fits. You have seen a number of methods here. I'm only going to add mine because it is EXTREMELY simple. Probably not best, but requires no effort to remember:

 

2NT - 3C asks for a 5-card major

3D no five card major

3H/3S natural (opener is now assumed to have no side 4-card suit, so 4m agrees the major)

3NT - 22 or 23 in the majors

 

2NT - 3C - 3D

3H natural (now 3S natural, 3NT no 4CM)

3S natural, not 4H

4m natural slam try (how many cards depends on the rest of your response structure)

 

So if responder has 5 spades and 4 hearts and no slam try, he bids 2NT - 3C - 3D - 3H - 3NT - 4S, as opener must have 3 spades.

[inquiry]

MikeH and Jlall's discussion of puppet stayman at the three level is interesting. ETM victory (which is what I use), uses 3♦, not 3♣ as puppet. This is an odd puppet because it can include 5-5 in majors by the 3♦ bidder. The responses are close to Justin's solution mentioned above, despite less room to explore... but the puppet stayman also allows responder to be 5-5 in the majors himself! Check it out...

 

1NT-3♦

• 3♥ no 4+ card spade suit, can have 5♠
       over 3♥, 3♠ ask for 5♥, 3NT is no
  
• 3♠ 4♠'s exactly
  
• 3NT = five ♠
  

That is easy enough. But ETM also uses responder rebids to show 5-5 in majors,

After opener’s rebids 3♥ to 3NT, responders rebid are:

• 4♣ Gerber (gasp.. it lives)
  
• 4♦ 5-5 in majors, general slam try
  
• 4♥ 5-5 in majors, game going, but implies mild slam try values over 3S or 3NT since could have just bid 4S to play
  
• 4♠ To play over 3♠ (showing 4♠ or 3NT (showing 5♠
  

Ok, you ask about smolen? You like smolen, right? Smolen still lives, well modified at least....

 

1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥, is what you expect, 5+♠, but 4+♥. Only use this with 5♥ when you want to give opener a choice between majors and 3NT (weak majors). Over 3♥, opener can bid 3NT to ask about responders hand. 3NT by responder shows 5-4 in majors, pick game. 4♥ shows 5-5 in majors, 4♠ shows the six card spade suit, and bids in the minor show 5-4 cue-bid.

 

With 4♠ and 5♥ just normal 3♠ smolen over 1NT-2C-2D.

[Finch]

Opening 1NT with a 5-card major. This depends on partner.

 

Playing with a pick-up partner I would open 1NT on all 5332s in range. It makes auctions simpler.

 

Playing with one of my regular partners I rarely open 1NT with a 5-card major. It is allowed systemically, particularly in 3rd/4th seat (when a slam is not likely), but only on hands that are suitable for play in NT. So I open 1S holding AQxxx AQx xx Axx but 1NT holding AQ109x QJx Kx KJx.

 

Opening these hands 1 major gives you bidding problems, which you generally need some sort of gadget to solve well. So if you don't want to play a lot of gadgets in your constructive auctions, open 1NT on all these hands. Without boring you with the details, the main hand types you need to deal with are:

 

- 5332s after 1H - 1S if outside your NT rebid range (I play 1NT rebid here as 12-17)

- Rebid problems after 1M - 2m if outside the NT rebid range (depends on your 2/1 style, various things are available)

- Rebid problems after 1M-1NT when opener has about 15-16 balanced.

 

A 17-count with a 5 card major is generally too good for a 15-17 NT.

 

A mini 1NT opening is a completely different animal. You are mainly opening it as an irritating part-score stealing pre-empt, so we are much more lax about shape (any 5332, 6322 with a 6-card minor, 5422 without both majors and the occasional 7222 with a long minor).

 

As a slight side point, my partnerships are starting to become more worried about opening 1NT with 4-4 in the majors - as a result we never upgrade 14s and frequently upgrade 17s with both majors.

[pigpenz]

One exception was 10-12 NT range. Opening 1 of a major was almost always superior with any 5-3-3-2 hand.

what do you base your opinion on just out of curiosity?