Rebid Headache

[Guest Jlall]

This may be weird but with that hand you could conceivably open 2C and rebid 2N. Sounds like that will get you to slam though if pard has 10 and a void. Did it go down only because of the bad splits?

[mike777]

Geez and I thought this was an easy one, 4h or 3nt take your choice. No need for gadgets or bidding non-existant suits oh well.

 

I thought iggy's hand was even easier, 3nt rebid.

 

No wonder my pick up partners bid so wierd and never have any energy left over to count out the hands on offense or defense :). They exhaust themselves with simple hands. B)

[iggygork]

This may be weird but with that hand you could conceivably open 2C and rebid 2N. Sounds like that will get you to slam though if pard has 10 and a void. Did it go down only because of the bad splits?

It did go down mostly due to bad splits, but the most annoying part of the whole thing was the unconvincing auction. I thought about opening 2♣ and rebidding 2♥ but then I would have to bid 3♥ anyway over pard's response and I wanted to find out more about his hand at a lower level. So much for that strategy B)

[Double !]

Confession

I am going to get raked for this but, if my partner is a passed hand, I would seriously consider opening 2 clubs and rebidding 2NT. After all, I do have 8 tricks in my hand, and I need 1 trick from partner and for the opps to not run off 5+ diamond tricks before I get in. I can still make game opposite a hand that P might pass a 1H opening. I wonder how many others of you might also do this if the running suit were a minor. Another way, as previously mentioned, is to play some form of Benjamin 2-bids (which I like-thought I was the only one) and open whichever bid you use to show an acol 2-bid. Otherwise, 1H and rebidding 4H if P can muster up a response, is a practical way of bidding the hand, particularly if playing some form of namyats/ mitchell transfers.

 

oops, sorry, did not see the post above: was busy writing this. Oh, well.

[Winstonm]

This is becoming really annoying.

 

1) this is the SAYC and 2/1 discussion forum.

2) if you could show 6H and 3S and extra values, or if you could show 8 tricks in a major with a 2C opener, this hand would NOT be a problem.

3) Please assume standard methods. Bidding problems on here seem to end up being "I have X treatment so thats how I solve this bidding problem" as opposed to "I'm playing standard methods thus this is a problem hand so what, in my judgement, is the best bid?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is the point of bidding porblems in general, especially on the sayc 2/1 board. I know in real life if I gave this problem and someone said "I bid 3H showing 6H and 3S and extras" I would say "you don't have that bid available, so what do you bid?"

 

That being said, yes I would open 1H. Over 1S I'll just bid 4H. I make opposite the KQ of spades and out so I can't see making a non forcing bid, and 3C is just sick. 3N could work out, but it could work poorly as well.

 

On a side note: here is a bidding problem for you free. J AQT9xx KQx Axx playing YOUR methods, 1H p 1S ?

Thanks, Justin. I chose this post specifically because it dealt with SAYC and 2/1. I'm just curious how excellent players try to solve these kinds of rebid headaches in real life without the luxury of perfect system bids.

 

I appreciate the system ideas as well - don't get me wrong - but along with the system answers it would be nice to also say, not having that available, I guess I'd do so and so. :)

 

Winston

[inquiry]

I appreciate the system ideas as well - don't get me wrong - but along with the system answers it would be nice to also say, not having that available, I guess I'd do so and so. :huh:

Well, since Justin took a jab at my answer to the YOUR question "You open 1H (Agree, disagree, or maybe?). were I said no, I would open 2♣ and explained why, let me add that I did exactly as you suggested. I added that if I didn't (or couldn't) open 2♣ I would rebid 3NT. Somehow I thought both answers were what you were looking for. If you didn't want alternatives to 1H, why ask if we agreed?

[Guest Jlall]

Because you didn't answer his question (of do you agree with 1H) assuming standard methods. You basically said you disagree because you'd play a new system. If you would open a standard 2C, more power to you. If you would open 2N, great. To make it extreme I could say "of course I wouldn't open 1H, I would open 2H, strong 2 bid." I agree with Winston, adding system ideas is great, but at least answer the problem. I have no problem with what you did though because you answered the actual bidding problem, so it wasn't really directed at you.

[Fluffy]

1♥-1♠-2NT GF, simple and easy :huh:

ROFL...i guess my post was a lost cause. ok. If you could bid this way would this hand be a problem?

2NT gf is the standard treatment! :huh:, 6+18=24 then nobody can stay out of game.

 

Of course it shows a balanced hand, but anyway when bidding 2NT you will end in 3NT, 4♠, 6♠ or 6NT 95% of the time, I agree you might want to play in ♥ rather than ♠, but the bidding seems the best overall.

[helene_t]

I would bid 2NT even if it's only semi-forcing. If partner bids 3NT I bid 4♥ (not sure that's right).

[Winstonm]

I appreciate the system ideas as well - don't get me wrong - but along with the system answers it would be nice to also say, not having that available, I guess I'd do so and so.  ;)

Well, since Justin took a jab at my answer to the YOUR question "You open 1H (Agree, disagree, or maybe?). were I said no, I would open 2♣ and explained why, let me add that I did exactly as you suggested. I added that if I didn't (or couldn't) open 2♣ I would rebid 3NT. Somehow I thought both answers were what you were looking for. If you didn't want alternatives to 1H, why ask if we agreed?

Thanks for your input Ben - and yes, the question was would you open 1H or would you try to solve the rebid problem by chosing another opening bid. Whether there were those who judged that it may be right to open 2C was certainly part of what I was thinking of when I posed the question (agree, disagree, maybe?).

 

Rebid heachaches come in two forms: those that occur after you have chosen a bid and those that are avoided by the choice of opening bids. Another bid I thought some might chose simply due to the rebid headache might be a 2N opening. It is the discussion of the pros and cons of all these choices set within the framework of 2/1 or SAYC that I was looking for, as well as the discussion of how to handle the rebid after a 1H opening.

 

Don't get me wrong - all input is valued - it is just that with my regular partner I play 2/1 so although interesting to see systemic solutions as far as helpful answers that stay within the framework of the question are more so.

 

I have great respect for all the minds who regularly inhabit these pages, and I don't consider myself to be in the "elite" group in the bridge world so to be able to wander into a discussion with all the folks who contribute is an honor.

 

And I sincerely appreciate anyone who takes the time to give freely of his or her knowledge and expertise.

 

Winston

 

Winston

[inquiry]

Well if you play 2♥ as instant double negative to a 2♣ opening bid, it is very easy to incorporate ACOL two bids in either of your majors into SAYC or 2/1. Simply pass 2♥ with an acol 2 bid in hearts, and rebid a non-forcing 2♠ if you have that hand. This does not require a great re-work of what you play and is very effective.. I just enjoy it everytime the auction goes...2C-2H-PASS (except against henri he will balance everytime, and he is right), as his side has half the deck.

 

Of course, if your 2♥ is not double negative right away, this method will not work for you.

[mikeh]

2NT gf is the standard treatment! :P, 6+18=24 then nobody can stay out of game.

 

Of course it shows a balanced hand, but anyway when bidding 2NT you will end in 3NT, 4♠, 6♠ or 6NT 95% of the time, I agree you might want to play in ♥ rather than ♠, but the bidding seems the best overall.

2NT gf as standard is not standard :D

 

2N shows upgraded 17 count to average 19. I like my partners to respond to my 1-level openings on any decent 5 count and on some good 4 counts.

 

So 2N on this hand is wrong for two main reasons: it is an underbid, and it is a distortion.

 

There are times when distortion is unavoidable even in your constructive auctions. Indeed, my choice of 3♣ is a distortion.

 

However, in choosing one's distortion, one should try to minimize the probability that the distortion will come back to bite you. 3♣ has the lowest risk to reward ratio: because partner will very, very rarely, if ever, jump to 5♣. The worst that is realistically probable is he bids 4♣ and you bid 4♥, which he should usually pass.

 

4♥ has lower risk in the sense of reaching an unplayable contract, but offers slightly less reward, in that it makes slam bidding more difficult, and rules out 3N.

 

2N threatens to miss game, and risks reaching the wrong game or the right game from the wrong side.

 

Partner will not appreciate your hogging of the hand if he holds KQxx xx Jxx Kxxx

 

Won't he be impressed when they run 5 ♦ tricks on you.

 

Or maybe he has a ♦ stopper..... from his side :rolleyes:

 

BTW, for those who think 3N shows this hand: it doesn't!

 

3N shows both minors stopped, even if you restrict its use (as I do) to a 'near-solid' or better ♥ suit: AKQ10xx would be my minimum holding. 3N is not just a preempt and a grab of dummy: it is a positive, descriptive bid over which an intelligent partner is encouraged to move with the right hand. Typically the 3N bidder is short and weak in ♠, not an unbid sidesuit.

[mikeh]

Well if you play 2♥ as instant double negative to a 2♣ opening bid, it is very easy to incorporate ACOL two bids in either of your majors into SAYC or 2/1. Simply pass 2♥ with an acol 2 bid in hearts, and rebid a non-forcing 2♠ if you have that hand.

I pick up AKQxx AKQxx Ax x

 

I open 2♣ and hear partner bid an immediate negative 2♥.

 

I cannot adopt Ben's pass or 2♠, since game is likely (and slam possible), if only I can find out which major partner prefers.

 

So I bid 3♠, I assume. Partner holds xx Jxxx xxx Qxxx.

 

3♠ is forcing, but what can my guy do? He bids 4♠ to shut it down: 3N would not be my choice, but if you insist that 3N is the 'correct bid', change partner's hand to xxx Jxxxx xxx xx. Now he has to raise ♠.

 

I'm not suggesting that any method gets to the decent 6♥ (on the second hand), but I do know that I'd prefer the 10 card fit to the 8 card fit on that one and the 9 card fit to the 7 card fit on the first.

 

So it is not possible to incorporate Acol 2 bids into a standard 2♣ opening style merely by using 2♥ as immediate negative (which I have played for more than 20 years, so can claim some familiarity with the method).

 

We see this type of system tweak suggested all the time, usually in response to a specific problem. There is a tendency to say: Aha, we can deal with this problem by making this change to our method: see how well it works!

 

But this is NOT how to build a system. All system changes have implications for hands which are DIFFERENT from the ones we have just 'fixed'. A proper system reflects a coherent, consistent, holistic philosophy: and a change to any one part impacts many other parts, directly or (more commonly) indirectly.

[mike777]

Well if you play 2♥ as instant double negative to a 2♣ opening bid, it is very easy to incorporate ACOL two bids in either of your majors into SAYC or 2/1. Simply pass 2♥ with an acol 2 bid in hearts, and rebid a non-forcing 2♠ if you have that hand.

I pick up AKQxx AKQxx Ax x

 

I open 2♣ and hear partner bid an immediate negative 2♥.

 

I cannot adopt Ben's pass or 2♠, since game is likely (and slam possible), if only I can find out which major partner prefers.

 

So I bid 3♠, I assume. Partner holds xx Jxxx xxx Qxxx.

 

3♠ is forcing, but what can my guy do? He bids 4♠ to shut it down: 3N would not be my choice, but if you insist that 3N is the 'correct bid', change partner's hand to xxx Jxxxx xxx xx. Now he has to raise ♠.

 

I'm not suggesting that any method gets to the decent 6♥ (on the second hand), but I do know that I'd prefer the 10 card fit to the 8 card fit on that one and the 9 card fit to the 7 card fit on the first.

 

So it is not possible to incorporate Acol 2 bids into a standard 2♣ opening style merely by using 2♥ as immediate negative (which I have played for more than 20 years, so can claim some familiarity with the method).

 

We see this type of system tweak suggested all the time, usually in response to a specific problem. There is a tendency to say: Aha, we can deal with this problem by making this change to our method: see how well it works!

 

But this is NOT how to build a system. All system changes have implications for hands which are DIFFERENT from the ones we have just 'fixed'. A proper system reflects a coherent, consistent, holistic philosophy: and a change to any one part impacts many other parts, directly or (more commonly) indirectly.

assuming 2h=no ace or king but can have zero or many small hcp

I bid 2s non force...partner can strain to bid with anything or pass with nothing.

[inquiry]

Well if you play 2♥ as instant double negative to a 2♣ opening bid, it is very easy to incorporate ACOL two bids in either of your majors into SAYC or 2/1. Simply pass 2♥ with an acol 2 bid in hearts, and rebid a non-forcing 2♠ if you have that hand.

I pick up AKQxx AKQxx Ax x

 

I open 2♣ and hear partner bid an immediate negative 2♥.

 

I cannot adopt Ben's pass or 2♠, since game is likely (and slam possible), if only I can find out which major partner prefers.

 

So I bid 3♠, I assume. Partner holds xx Jxxx xxx Qxxx.

 

3♠ is forcing, but what can my guy do? He bids 4♠ to shut it down: 3N would not be my choice, but if you insist that 3N is the 'correct bid', change partner's hand to xxx Jxxxx xxx xx. Now he has to raise ♠.

 

I'm not suggesting that any method gets to the decent 6♥ (on the second hand), but I do know that I'd prefer the 10 card fit to the 8 card fit on that one and the 9 card fit to the 7 card fit on the first.

 

So it is not possible to incorporate Acol 2 bids into a standard 2♣ opening style merely by using 2♥ as immediate negative (which I have played for more than 20 years, so can claim some familiarity with the method).

 

We see this type of system tweak suggested all the time, usually in response to a specific problem. There is a tendency to say: Aha, we can deal with this problem by making this change to our method: see how well it works!

 

But this is NOT how to build a system. All system changes have implications for hands which are DIFFERENT from the ones we have just 'fixed'. A proper system reflects a coherent, consistent, holistic philosophy: and a change to any one part impacts many other parts, directly or (more commonly) indirectly.

Well, thanks for the advertizement for two of my methods in one post Mike. That might be a record!!

 

As I said in my original post in this thread, I play both 2♥ and 2♠ as double negatives (not just 2♥). This "type" of responder hand is why (I don't mean two suiter per se). Now responder bids 2♥ - no trick for heart contract, 2♠ no trick for spade, likely trick (aka fit) for hearts. So your partner would bid 2♠ with this hand and finding hearts is easy, and finding six hearts is not totally out of the question.

 

But, with a strong two suiter, I don't open 2♣. This is part of the simplification of the auctions after opening 2♣ i was mentioning to justin in the thread on MisIry. Problems like this, even on a non-competitive auction is problematic, and in competition can be even worse.

 

So if I opened this 2♣, the bidding would be 2♣ - 2♠ - 4♥. Hannie and I ahd this very auction recently where the heart fit was enough to allow game. Or I would open 2NT (misiry) and heart fit is found per force.

 

Now, due to the beating I was taking for a "non-SAYC/2over1" 2♣, I made the note that you could open these kinds of hands if you play 2♥ double negative (even though I play both, as i think everyone should). If you play misiry, then you can still do this without worry about hands like this even if you don't play both majors as the double negative. But I like the both majors, because you can find some good heart game when partner bids 2♠, if one trick or a fit is enough.

 

Ben

[mikeh]

Sorry, Ben, but I am not actually agreeing with your basic method: of using both 2♥ and 2♠ as immediate second negatives.

 

My point was to show that you cannot logically combine Acol 2-bids with the strong 2♣/immediate negative 2♥ approach.

 

Your use of 2♥ and 2♠ as negatives is in fact an example of what I was trying to criticize: the 'invention' of a specialized bid to 'fix' a perceived (and often real) problem without full consideration of the ramifications for other hands and other parts of the system.

 

Look at your kludge here: you give up the entire 2-level just so that you can, on the relatively rare hands with no A or K, tell partner (who may not be interested) and the opps (who may) whether you have 'no fit' for ♥! And what do you do when you have a fit for both but a double negative? Do you have to start destroying your 3-level space as well? Please do not tell me your 'fix' for this :rolleyes:

 

I am merely trying to make a point about the problems with kludges.

 

And you have to open at the 1-level with strong 2-suiters! So either you risk missing game (because partner passes) or you have to play that 1-level bids range from good 11's to powerful 26+ two-suiters. And earlier you called 2/1 'virtually unplayable' :P

 

You have clearly spent a lot of time in developing your system, and I wish you well with it. I have no idea whether it is a truly integrated system, and am not intending to criticize it at all. But I can tell that it is either unplayable or so different in fundamental approach from 'standard' that transferring your pet sequences into standard is not going to work... at least not over 2♣. I suspect the latter.

[inquiry]

Sorry, Ben, but I am not actually agreeing with your basic method: of using both 2♥ and 2♠ as immediate second negatives.

 

I am merely trying to make a point about the problems with kludges.

 

And you have to open at the 1-level with strong 2-suiters!

Yes, i knew you were "disagreeing" with me. But, your example actually is not a hand that would occur if I was bidding, that was my point, and why it wouldn't. Despite your using that hand to say "Ben method would fail on this one".

 

And I will not explain anymore of my kludges, just rest assured, I MOST CLEARLY DO NOT OPEN STRONG TWO SUITERS AT THE ONE LEVEL depite your now adding that anchor to my bidding. (As all the people tired of hearing my "kludge" for that will attest too) :rolleyes:

[Fluffy]

2N shows upgraded 17 count to average 19. I like my partners to respond to my 1-level openings on any decent 5 count and on some good 4 counts.

AHA!!! That's the point of the question :)

 

Because you open 1NT with 5c major you feel openeing 1NT with 17 is too strong, then you have to invent something weird liek a 2NT rebid with 17, as the result you end up playin non GF 2NT rebids :). Now stratto open 1♠ with 15-17 balanced and delight from the benefits of a GF 2NT rebid :D

[Guest Jlall]

not really... a good 17 means its too good to be considered 17 so its the equivalent of 18. People just dont play game with 18-19 opp 4. imagine.

[Double !]

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand. I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade. (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

[the hog]

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand.  I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade.  (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

 

And what pray tell do you bid over 5C? Probably best might be to claim you just got an urgent phone call and leave the room. What about a 4D splinter over your 3C bid; what do you do now?

 

Also is not 4H over 4C a cue bid agreeing C?

Jumping on a 3 card suit is bad enough, jumping on a 2 card suit is suicide.

[Double !]

IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be), because 1) partner does not have 5-8/9 with 3-card heart support: that hand shoud simply respond 2H), 2) I want to hear partner's rebid (if he rebids 3D FSF, I can rebid 3S/ if he rebids 3NT, well that looks good to me), and 3) I can then correct P's 3rd bid be it 3NT or 4C (or a response of 4C to 3C) to 4H and be showing this type of hand.  I might select a different initial rebid without the 3rd spade.  (I still prefer a 2C opening with this hand, especially if I can get out at 3H: if I can't make 3H, what can the opps make?)

 

And what pray tell do you bid over 5C? Probably best might be to claim you just got an urgent phone call and leave the room. What about a 4D splinter over your 3C bid; what do you do now?

 

Also is not 4H over 4C a cue bid agreeing C?

Jumping on a 3 card suit is bad enough, jumping on a 2 card suit is suicide.

Please reread my post. I prefaced my response with the words "IF I were to open this hand 1 heart", and I concluded by saying that I preferred to open the hand 2 clubs, especially if able to stop at 3M (I don't play 2C is a GF, just forcing to 2NT or 3M or 4m) (I also happen to like Benjy 2-bids, but that is another matter.) So, please, before attacking to reinforce your point, please read more carefully all that was said. Thank you.

 

DHL

[the hog]

I did read your post and did see that you would have opened 2C, (a decision with which I disagree incidentally). However playing mainstream bridge with a mainstream and having opened 1H, you said, and I quote:

 

"IF I were to open this hand 1 heart and receive a 1S response from P, I confess that I would rebid 3C (distortion that it might seem to be)"

 

Well then, what would you do over 5C etc? You still have not answered that.

 

Sure, I would open it with a big C, but the original poster did not ask you to bid the hand using your preferred methods, but gave you a set of conditions.