sayc 18-19 balanced opened 1c - all pass

[bestguru]

I had a nice discussion with my RHO after a disaster today. We came up with using

1♦ 6-9 balanced and 1nt as 0-5 anything. It seems like a good idea to me.

 

pros:

 

weak nt hand vs garbage is found out early and preempts 4th seat

18-19 bal vs garbage can pass at 1nt instead of being in 2nt.

after 1c-1nt opener could have a variety of different hands making it tough for opps to get into the bidding.

 

I'm rather enamored with it right now and don't see any real cons. If you are concerned about being doubled in 1nt then you can add an escape sequence. I think this would work:

P - let them figure it out

XX - single suiter (allows weak 6322 hands that are not suitable for a 2 level opener)

2♣♦♥ - shows that suit and spades 4+/4+

2♠ - both majors or spades and clubs 5+/5+

2nt - strong two suiter with clubs

 

What do you all think?

 

 

edited: changed my 2♠ escape because it made no sense

[hrothgar]

sounds dreadful to me...

 

if this is an issue for you, just play Polish club

[pbleighton]

Much better just to respond light, particularly if you are short in pd's major, if you are worried about being passed out.

 

Peter

[luis]

Sounds horrible to me.

A lot better just to respond light.

If you play strong NT your 1♣ opening is usually 12-14 balanced, then when responder has 0-6 and bids 1NT if your side is vulnerable we can agree to jusy double you in anything that you want to play.

[Flame]

escapes tricks are good, they might o rescue you but why do you put urself volontarily into a place where you need to be rescue ? This all idea came because you had 18-19 bal, but most of the time u wont have 18-19 u will have 12-14 and will just help ur opps.

[Free]

Escape structure still doesn't make any sense to me, you only have hands with ♠s or a singlesuiter :P

 

The response idea is horrible imo, and like someone else said, if you make a problem out of it, play some form of polish club or dutch doubleton or whatever which opens 1♣ with all 18-20hcp balanced hands. You can also just respond a little lighter and that should work out ok as well.

 

Perhaps a little "why it's so bad": 1NT preempts yourself, not so much 4th seat guy. You might be missing 4-4 Major fits, opener can be reverse (what's his rebid?),... You just say "well ok, I have a negative response, but I don't show you anything from my shape, AND I'll just take the entire 1-level away from us to find the best partscore". Why play 2X*-2 instead of letting opponents bid and play? The frequency of 18-19hcp hands opposite 0-5 is quite low, but the frequency of a normal opening (minimum or medium) opposite a 0-5 is a lot higher! And you'll end up a lot in a very poor contract I'm afraid...

[awm]

You might do better by using a polish club style response set. Something like:

 

1♦ = 0-5 hcp balanced/semi-balanced without 4+♣, or natural with diamonds

1♥/♠ = natural, 6+ points

1NT = 6-9 balanced, no 4cM, etc.

2♣ = normal raise, or inverted, whatever you prefer

 

After 1♣-1♦, with a balanced hand opener rebids the longer major. This could be a three-card suit in some instances. However, it gives responder a little more information and a chance to improve the contract. Then 1♣-1♦-1NT shows the strong hand (18-19), allowing you to stop at the one-level in a reasonable contract.

 

By responding 1♦ on the weak hands, you retain the ability to get out in 1M. You also keep the auction low enough that opponents may be tempted to save you by bidding over 1♦.

[Winstonm]

You can't fix 1 problem without ramifications on every other bid you make. What you are espousing is simply a forcing 1C with a negative 1N....seems to me Roman or Little Roman used this but reversed....1D negative and 1N forcing to game but I don't remember for sure. The point is, however, once you change the natural meaning of a bid it is lost forever and that hand has to be described another way, which means another natural bid is lost, meaning another change, etc., etc.

 

If you don't like the idea of occassionally being passed when you have a strong hand, the better options are to adopt a comprehensive system that has been tested and is proven to be effective and has the ripples worked out.

 

It's the ripple effect. Fix the pond by chunking a rock into the center, then watch as all the ripples affect every other bid you make or don't make.

 

Winston

[zasanya]

Bestguru, One of our local players Mr K D Joshi has devised a system which will allow you to achieve your aim ;-)

1♣=12-14 response 1♦ 0 upwards but less than game values

1♦=15-17 response 1♥ 0 upwards.....

1♥=.........and so on goes the K D Joshi system ;)

[bestguru]

Thanks for all the responses. I agree it was a kneejerk response. I do like awm's idea though

[mike777]

Plug for Mexican 2D=18-19 balanced, offshape ok.

Like all gadgets it has pluses and minuses.

It can help make your other non 2d openers more constructive.

[coyot]

Why make things complicated?

1c followed by three passes happens sometimes... so what?

 

Compare the frequency 18-19 and 0-5 hands to 12-14 and 0-5 hands. See how many times you will get stupidly doubled and punished in cases where the 4th seat would simply reopen 1♣ with any natural bid.

 

Adding the cost of losing 1♦ as a natural forcing bid, what will you do with 10 HCP with 4 diamonds? Jump to 2NT? With 5diamonds? Jump to 2♦?

 

I think that it is easier to play a simple system and occasionally get a bad result, especially since most other pairs will get the same result :blink:

[Fluffy]

What is the problem about playin 1♣ with 18 balanced opposite nothing?

[helene_t]

What is the problem about playin 1♣ with 18 balanced opposite nothing?

That's what I don't understand either. And even if it is bad, there's a good chance that the opps will rescue you. Which is much less the case if you open a Mexican 2♦.

[Chamaco]

I do not get why the mexican 2D is viewed as complicated.

 

If played as a 1-way bid, it is unambiguous, and it certainly helps to take the 18-19 hand away from our 1m opener when 4th hand interferes after the 1M response.

 

Th mexican 2D actually *simplifies* things rather than complicate them, at the cost of giving up the preemptive 2D tools of our liking.

[han]

There is another cost to playing Mexican 2D: you can't play in 1C or 1D when it's right (or 1NT on an auction like 1C-p-p-dbl-1NT-all pass).

[Chamaco]

There is another cost to playing Mexican 2D: you can't play in 1C or 1D when it's right (or 1NT on an auction like 1C-p-p-dbl-1NT-all pass).

There is a cost in every choice, of course.

 

The key to deciding whether or not it is wortwhile is the analysis of the frequency of gains and losses.

 

I do not have the experience or knowledge to guess how often it is right to stop in 1m; I would guess that the frequency of the losses by not stopping in 1m is lower than the frequency of the gains we get by "cleaning up" our 1m opener (more unbalanced hand", as well as by being able to stop in 2M with the Paradox responses.

 

But again, I do not know.

In such cases, I rely on the judgment of top playerrs, and it seems to bme that in the top 10-20 pairs there is a decent share of players using it.

(Which does no necessarily means it's best, but at least that my liking is not completely off-track :rolleyes: ).

[coyot]

I was a victim of 1♣ down 2 vulnerable last week :-), but I still don't think that this happens often enough to come up with some special negative response. 1♦ openers will remain just as bad when this happens. EIther make it simple and natural, or switch to a completely artificial system where opps will know absolutely nothing when you end up in 1NT.

Both approaches have their merits, but I would not want to mix any sort of "negative diamond" into SA-based system. 1♦ natural response is quite helpful, especially for bidding 4M-5♦ shapes with values :-).

[Gerben42]

Happens. Don't lose sleep about it. I dislike the "just respond light" philosophy. Then partner will "just rebid 2NT" or reverse or something else forcing you to further misdescribe your hand.

 

The prime solution is to play a system where the opening bids do not show 11 to whatever isn't strong enough for a big 2♣.

[Chamaco]

EIther make it simple and natural, or switch to a completely artificial system where opps will know absolutely nothing when you end up in 1NT.

 

1) opening 2D with 18-19 bal. is not a big complication, and makes "more natural" all the 1m openings, indeed simplifying the task;

 

2) The statement "either all simple natural or all artificial" seems to me more of a slogan than a real-world acknowledgment.

In the real world, most of the times, even systems based on KISS do incorporate conventions such as the following, in order to be competitive:

 

Many "simple, natural" players use:

- 1M:2NT jacoby raises

- fitshowing jumps or Bergen raises or other fancy stuff

- forcing 1NT

- 2-way checkback stayman or new minor forcing in 1-over-1 auctions

- Many of them use Multi 2D

- not to mention takeout doubles (yes, even the t/o double used to be banned at the Portland Club that used to allow only natural bids)

 

Why is the Mexican 2D supposed to be "less simple" than any of the above ?

 

I do not have the answer, but only a guess of mine:

often we define as more complicated something that is not really more complicated than the rest of our knowledge;

instead, the reason is that it's just unusual for us.

 

If this is the case, it's enough to learn it, and believe me, learning Mexican 2D is not any more difficult than learning any of the above conventions which are quite often used by KISS players :-)

[coyot]

I'm not against conventions, mind you.

 

I play SA based system with 2♦ multi and 2M destructive openers.

I am only trying to say that you should NOT introduce unnatural gadgets into your system BECAUSE the system sometimes brings a disaster, at the cost of natural bidding.

 

I recall from the beginning of this thread the suggestion that 1♦ and 1NT responses over 1♣ in SAYC would be completely changed to talk about points. This attacks the system philosophy, changes it's natural "basis". When I say "keep it simple and natural", I don't care what your 2♦ opener promises, but I want 1♣-1♦ to show diamonds and I want 1♣-1NT to show a limited balanced hand with no interest in majors. There might be slight variations about what those bids exactly promise/deny, but basically the bidding will be still natural.

 

IMHO it is not a good idea to merge "strong club and negative diamond" structure into a "natural" (does NOT equal convetion-less) system, that's the whole point of my post.

 

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? You'll open 1♣ with 20-21 balanced against nothing and will MAYBE end one trick better off than with 18-19. If your LHO has trapping pass in clubs and your RHO sees it and passes wisely, you're still toasted. True, 20-21 is less likely than 18-19, but, then, the 2♦ may get you higher than where you belong if partner is broke, so I am not sure if it helps more often than it hurts ;).

[Chamaco]

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21?

I assumed 2NT = "natural" 20-21(22) balanced :)

 

EDIT:

sorry, I misread, I meant 2NT openers, not the rebids.

For possible meanings of 2NT rebids see NickToll's post below.

[NickToll]

... Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? ...

Having 2♦ as 18-19 or 18-20 balanced is not intended to raise the strength of a 2NT rebid: its purpose is to exclude strong balanced hands from 1-bids (open 2NT with 20-22 or 21-23).

 

Now your 2NT rebids are free for any use you like: a strong raise of responder's suit, a strong 1-suiter with stoppers, a strong 6-4 two-suiter, everything goes as long as it suits your partnership's preference. Much of the same in competitive sequences: never having 18+ balanced, opener will be able to rebid 2NT over RHO's overcall as Good-Bad or anything else the partnership agrees upon...

[mike777]

I'm not against conventions, mind you.

 

I play SA based system with 2♦ multi and 2M destructive openers.

I am only trying to say that you should NOT introduce unnatural gadgets into your system BECAUSE the system sometimes brings a disaster, at the cost of natural bidding.

 

I recall from the beginning of this thread the suggestion that 1♦ and 1NT responses over 1♣ in SAYC would be completely changed to talk about points. This attacks the system philosophy, changes it's natural "basis". When I say "keep it simple and natural", I don't care what your 2♦ opener promises, but I want 1♣-1♦ to show diamonds and I want 1♣-1NT to show a limited balanced hand with no interest in majors. There might be slight variations about what those bids exactly promise/deny, but basically the bidding will be still natural.

 

IMHO it is not a good idea to merge "strong club and negative diamond" structure into a "natural" (does NOT equal convetion-less) system, that's the whole point of my post.

 

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? You'll open 1♣ with 20-21 balanced against nothing and will MAYBE end one trick better off than with 18-19. If your LHO has trapping pass in clubs and your RHO sees it and passes wisely, you're still toasted. True, 20-21 is less likely than 18-19, but, then, the 2♦ may get you higher than where you belong if partner is broke, so I am not sure if it helps more often than it hurts :).

NO NO NO

 

2nt rebids are exactly 17 hcp, very precise.

1nt=14-16 off shape ok

2nt=20-21

 

Yes, 2D can be complicated

Yes, you can play complicated Baron over your 2nt rebid

Yes playing offshape 1nt and mexican 2d can be complicated.

Yes, 1c=1d shows D, walsh style

Yes 1c=1nt shows 8-11 natural.

The gain is it makes the rest of your non 1nt and 2d auctions more constructive.

Yes, there are costs.

[Guest Jlall]

having a bid to show exactly 17 HCP balanced is very wasteful (and youre back to the danger of partner rebidding 2N when you respond light). I really suggest you either include 17 HCP in your 1N opener or include it in your 2D opener (which is what hugh and kimmel do btw).